From cjampala@desire.wright.edu Mon Oct 28 08:52:17 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA21060 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:52:13 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA03551 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:52:12 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id IAA07844 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:50:57 -0600 Received: from desire.wright.edu (desire.wright.edu [130.108.128.200]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA07835 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:50:55 -0600 Received: from desire.wright.edu by desire.wright.edu (PMDF V5.0-5 #2485) id <01IB67G0XR4W8Y8YNP@desire.wright.edu>; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:50:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:50:05 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" Subject: Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan's US visit itinerary To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Cc: CJAMPALA Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan visiting USA 'Outstanding Officer' left IAS to start 'The Foundation for Democratic Reforms' Dr. N. Jayaprakash Narayan, who recently made news when he resigned from the Andhra Pradesh cadre of Indian Administrative Service to dedicate himself to pursuing constitutional and democratic reforms, will be in USA for a three week period. 40 year old Jayaprakash Narayan, who was named for the famed freedom fighter and socialist leader, was one of the first physicians to join the IAS, ranking fourth in the batch of 1980. He distinguished himself in many administrative roles over the last 16 years earning a solid reputation of being an 'outstanding IAS officer'. As the Deputy Collector in Vizag, he worked for speedy compensation for lands annexed for building the Steel Plant. As the Collector of Prakasam district, he was instrumental in building a lift-irrigation system bringing hundreds of thousands of hectares into agriculture. As the Collector of East Godavari district, he initiated improvements to the water drainage and flood prevention systems. He played a key administrative role in the state as the secretary to the chief minister during NTR's second stint in 1994-95. Later, as the managing director of the Industrial Infrastructure Development Corporation, he designed plans for the development of the infrastructure of the port cities of AP, and masterminded a plan to rapidly develop Hyderabad into Info-city. Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan spent a significant portion of the past decade searching for solutions for the problems that seem to be afflicting India. Fitting with his training as a good physician, he diagnosed the illnesses and proposed a treatment plan in many essays and books, including the most recent The Indian Republic: Collapse and Rejuvenation. He says that a series of constitutional and administrative reforms are necessary if the country is to survive and progress. Constrained by the government service in pursuing his ideals, he decided to sacrifice his blooming career and dedicate himself to work towards the fulfillment of his dreams of the reformation of the structure of Indian governance. Last month, Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan resigned from IAS to start a non-profit, non-partisan organization, 'The Foundation for Democratic Reforms'. The Foundation, which attracted many like minded people, intends to organize a grass-roots movement that focusses on four major goals: 1) Democratization of our polity including inner party democracy and increased public accounting of political parties and direct elections to Chief Executive positions, 2) Decentralization of Governance, 3) Debeaureaucratization of our administration, and 4) A speedy and efficient administration of justice. Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan recognizes that such a movement faces heavy odds and should prepare itself for a long and arduous struggle. He, however, feels that a beginning needs to be made somewhere, and is willing to take on the task. He is confident that his movement will gather its strength from its grassroots activity, and the irrefutable need for reforms. Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan is currently on a private three week visit to USA, and is meeting with members of Indian community, exchanging views and discussing his thoughts on how the Indian Republic could be rejuvenated. Tentative itinerary follows: Nov 1, Saturday Pittsburgh Nov 2, Sunday Washington, DC Nov 9, Saturday St. Louis Nov 10, Sunday Chicago Nov 11, Monday Minneapolis Nov 12, Tuesday Manhattan, KS Nov 14, Thursday Dayton, OH Nov 15, Friday Columbus, OH Nov 16, Saturday Detroit Nov 17, Sunday New York Detailed information regarding Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan's itinerary and copies of his paper, The Collapse and Rejuvenation of Indian Republic, can be obtained by contacting V. Chowdary Jampala at 937-427-8927 (e-mail: cjampala@dayton.net). Regards. --- V. Chowdary Jampala From sdokka@st6000.sct.edu Mon Oct 28 09:51:34 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA22690 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:51:16 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA04914 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:51:14 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id JAA08107 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:50:00 -0600 Received: from st6000.sct.edu (st6000.sct.edu [168.28.176.249]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id JAA08098 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:49:51 -0600 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51742; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:48:28 -0500 From: sdokka@st6000.sct.edu (Ramabhadra Dokka) Message-Id: <9610281548.AA51742@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: Transformation ?? OR mis-representation -- Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam... To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:48:28 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 6420 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) > From: "Rao Veluri" > Subject: Transformation of Symbols in today's poetry! > > Here is a poem, titled paMcama vEdaM, actually the anchor poem > of the collection "paMcama vEdaM" by Satish Chander.The collection > was published in February 1995. Satish Chander, before becoming > the mouth piece of dalit movement through his poetry, wrote > quite a bit of 'ordinary' poetry. He is one of the leaders of > prajaa raciyatala samaakhya. What I see different in this poem is that the poet seems to be convinced upon what he is saying and that gave it a committed look from the poet's point of view. Not basing the discussion on the biased views of caste, religion and epics, I have the following comments on this poem and I welcome any discussion at an academic level. > His poem, paMcama vEdaM must be read in juxataposition to nannya's > piece from the mahaa bhaarata about Ekalavya. When I read this poem with that attitude in my mind, literally, not only did I find this quite an ordinary piece, but at times it is rather conflicting with the LOGIC and makes the reader think whether the author was in a confused state when he intermixed religion, society and epics to give his thoughts the shape of a kavitvam. I am not questioning the idea or the Arti behind the poem, I'd love to see such inner voices coming up with committed poetry in the name of daLit poetry but my observations here are based only on evaluating this piece at an academic level. For the reasons cited above, I feel that this is quite an ordinary piece with many inconsistencies to be answered and there could be other pieces (either from the same author or somebody else) which are more powerful, more coherent in meaning and more valued than this one, to be included in the class of poetry. > paMcama vEdaM > by > > satish chander > > > noorELLakee padihEDu maarkulE vEsi > jeevitaM lO tappiMcina gurudEvulaku > cEtulu jODiMci vraayunadi. > > 'neeku caccinaa arthaM kaaduraa' - ani > meeru tiTTukoMToo ceppina vELLa meeda lekka, > naaku caccaakanE artha mayyiMdi. nATi drONuDinI, ahankAra pUritulai guru pITAniki anarhulaina mari kondarinI uddESistU I kavita modaliana vidhAnam bAgundi.. > nEnennisaarlu lekka peTTukunnaa > naacEtiki naalugu vELLE vuMDEvi. Here the AkrOSam was portrayed in an effective way. > naannaki kooDaa ayidOvElu lEkanE > meeru guMDu sunnalu cuTTina prOgresu reporTu > meeda > yeppuDoo vEli mudra veyya lEdu. > > pucca puvvu laaMTi vennela rOjuna kooDaa > aa vElu lEkanE - > amma gOru muddalu tinipiMca lEdu. > > nEnu tella mukhaM vEsinappuDellaa > meeradEdO amruta bhaasha lO tiTTEvaaru. > naakannaM tappa amrutaM sayiMcadu. > > nijaM ceppaMDi > paMcamu DaMTE ayidO vElu lEnivaaDanEnaa > arthaM? > > maa muttata EkalavyuDu ceppaDu. > Here, Here, he defies the logic... 1. The poet was ONLY partially successful in portraying the responses from the oppressed sections of the society because, the right way to change such kind of attitude is by 'NOT SHOWING THE DISABILITY AGAIN and AGAIN' esp. when in reality there is no PHYSICAL disability as such. i.e. As long as one keeps calling this section as 'pancamam' or some thing like that and as long as people do not stop branding a section of the society, things can never change. Unfortunately this poem falls in the same category by symbolizing the 'loss of a finger' for generations as if there is something MISSING in this section in reality and as though they are not equal to the other sections of the society, some how. Anyone who thinks rationally knows that it is not true and for that reason I do not like this symbolic mis-representation. 2. It defies the logic when the poet says that 'loss of finger' has been heriditary. "muttAta EkalavyuDi' daggari nunDi, buvva peTTina talli daggari nunDi, kavi (aBivyakti in the poem) varakU andarU yI "boTana vElu lEni vamSam lOni vALLanaDam" defies the basic logic. 3. The poet failed to portray the real attitude of the daLit section. We all know that they are not less than anybody and it should be clearly imbibed in all sections of the society and ONLY then can the situation change. > naa janma rahasyaM mee SaastraallO raayanaMduku > nEneppuDoo krutaj~nuNNE. By this time, the poet seems to be totally confused between the SAstramulu, literature and the sentiments there in and he portrays his (biased) view of same old "what ever old is bad", "nammakAlannI mUDhamainavE" type opinion which is as absurd as a strong ILLOGICAL BELIEF/SUPERSTITION itself... > nannEvagiMcu kOvadaaniki mee nighaMTuvullO > saapa naarthaalu doraka nappudellaa > naa talli maaTE mee nOTlO naanu tuMDEdi > pOneeleMDi, dooshaNa lOnainaa naa tallikE > nEnu puTTaanani kharaaru cESaaru. > > mummaTikee meM talliki puTTina biddalamE. > ammE maaku daivaM > goppiLLu veli vEsina kuMtemma nayinaa > maa iLLakostE goMtemmanu cEsi kolcu kuMTaaM > EkalavyuDu dEvuLLaku kaakuMDaa > tallikE puTTaaDu. I rALLu visirinappuDu I poet, akkaDa vyAsuNNi nindincADO (katha alA naDipi ncinandulaku - intaku mundu jaya praBa lAgA), A epic nE nindicADO, mari tana BAvAnnE bayaTa peTTukonnADO artham kAvaDam lEdu. It all started with drONA and now it is going as far as castigating the epics and what else ?? > I am sure you get what I meant by the transformation > of the old symbols! No, Not for sure. I could not even figure out where did the poet start and where did he end the poem ?? I appreciate your explanation on what you MEANT by it. I feel that transformation of epic symbols is DEFINITELY NOT belittling them and playing with the sentiments of the society in a POET's efforts of giving his/her piece, a different look. That forces one to question the author if this piece was written in a state of thouroughly confused mind. Yesterday's Salman Rushdie and today's M.F.Husain are living examples of this. regards.. - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka from sdokka@st6000.sct.edu) From sdokka@st6000.sct.edu Mon Oct 28 11:40:19 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA24839 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:40:09 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA07010 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:40:08 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA08555 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:38:54 -0600 Received: from st6000.sct.edu (st6000.sct.edu [168.28.176.249]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA08546 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:38:39 -0600 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA45680; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:37:18 -0500 From: sdokka@st6000.sct.edu (Ramabhadra Dokka) Message-Id: <9610281737.AA45680@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: padya vidya - The art of writing poems - part 3 (cATuvulu) To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:37:18 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 5953 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) padya vidya -- The art of writing poems _______________________________________ - SrI viSwanAtha acyuta dEvarAyalu part 2 -- cATuvulu __________________ We have a series of poems categorized into 'cATuvulu' in our literature. The meaning of cATuvu is not to be misunderstood for condescending remarks aimed at a person or his writings by branding it 'tiTTu kavitvam' or so. "cATuvu" means -- "priyamaina mATa". I don't know when did it acquire the 'not so good' kind of meaning. Well intermixed wit and humor ("camatkAram" and "hAsyamu"), is the primary characteristic of this class of poems. "jonnannamu jonna kUDu, jonnambali, jonna kali, jonnale tappan, sunnasumI sannannamu pannuga palnATi sIma prajalandarakun.." This kandam from SrInAtha mahAkavi from his travelogue of palnADu is remembered even today mainly because of its form/structure apart from its BAvam. This POEM also describes the palnADu of that day and its socio- political situation. Most of the poems in this "cATu" category reveal to a large extent the social life and culture of the people of yester years. In scorching SUN and heat and the ArtI coming out of an unquencched thirst brought out the pun in a form that is truly unforgettable -- "siri gala vAniki cellenu, taruNulu padiyAru vElu taga penDlADan, tiripemunakiddarAnDrA, paramESA ganga viDumu pArvati cAlun.." These poems portray the wit and humor and those qualities are not limited to a section of a society or a portion of a literature. They are the elements that are in everyone's thinking and can be expressed naturally while writing poems. Many of us can talk equally wittingly and not taking it as far as personal sarcasm or castigating pun, one can always try to put the idea in the form of a poem and that is nothing but "cATuvu". Writing poems is an art and anyone can practise it. This trade of "padya racana" is nothing less than solving cross-word puzzles or learning computer programming. A large amount of vocabulary at one's finger tips is neither MANDATORY nor is it even sufficient to write poems of good quality. Sometimes, the more simpler are the words you choose, more beautiful the poems are. "eppuDu sampada kaligina, appuDu bandhuvulu vatturadi yeTlannan ? teppaluga ceruvu ninDina, kappalu padivElu cEru gadarA sumatI.." What is the eclectic and not-so-easily-understood vocabulary in this poem ?? What is it that a common man/neophyte doesn't understand in the above piece ?? Even mAnDalIka padamulu can be used in writing poems to increase the effect. Since the above idea is expressed in these simple words, it is being remembered and is being reproduced with ease by one and all. Anyone can write poems. Poets who have more vocabulary make their poems sound STRONG but not knowing too much of vocabulary in a language should not be a hindrance in expressing one's idea/BAvam. Since "writing poems" is an art that anybody can practise, it has been profession to write poems in the old days. Some generations back, those people who adopted this profession were called "BaTrAjulu". They used to deliver gems of poems filled with wit and humor improptu, on the occasion of a marriage or a celebration to entrtain the audience. One of such books in literature is "Andhra nAyaka Satakamu" which has a bunch of such poems in it. I wonder if there is any other "cATu padya Satakam" as powerful and as witty as this one from SrI kAsula purushOttam who used to be a BaTrAju. All this proves is just one thing, that any one who starts writing poems and starts expressing his ideas in a musical and beautiful form is all set to become a poet/kavi. We are all in the category of non-immigrant/immigrant status in this country. Many of us know about the lives of our fore fathers, poets and other literary stalwarts through the vast amount of the information that is preserved in the form of poems. One can similarly expect to pass on the history and also the legacy of writing poems for the posterity. By translating our ideas into poems, we will not only be making our mark in the literature but will be thanked by the future generations for letting them know of our life and preserving our literary forms, among other things. KODAK nowadays, is taking the credit for preserving the family history of many people, in its commercials. They say, by manufacturing a medium (the negative film and the photographic paper) that preserves information for generations, they are helping humanity in preserving their history. Even the highest quality medium of such kind is vulnerable to climatic and other forces. But if everyone of us starts putting into poems, the every day special and not-so-special incidents that one would like to preserve for / pass on to the next generation, that will by far be the BEST of mediums to protect the information for ages. By portraying and preserving the family history, life style and the incidents that are woven around these, in the form of poems, everyone of us will also be a part of the gigantic task of not ONLY preserving our own culture and history, but we ourselves will also be making an indelible mark for ourselves in the sands of history by CREATING literature. Writing poems is an art that anyone can learn, practise and appreciate and an art that everyone should enjoy for himself while doing that. Aren't those enough reasons for one start to writing poems ?? "padya vidya - evariki vAriki saMtRptini kaligincu vidya andarU nErva valasina vidya !!" We'll continue the discussion by learning the fundamentals of telugu meters also known as - Candassu, in later parts. P.S. : The original was written in telugu and I tried my hand at the translation to improve the readability in this forum. You can send in your comments /questions/suggestions/criticism to -- sdokka@st6000.sct.edu regards... - Ram(abhadra) Dokka From sdokka@st6000.sct.edu Mon Oct 28 14:48:08 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA27959 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:48:01 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA10670 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:48:00 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA09262 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:46:46 -0600 Received: from st6000.sct.edu (st6000.sct.edu [168.28.176.249]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id OAA09253 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:46:42 -0600 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59992; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:45:21 -0500 From: sdokka@st6000.sct.edu (Ramabhadra Dokka) Message-Id: <9610282045.AA59992@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: Re : Padya vidya - cATuvulu To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:45:20 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 506 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) In my previous post the part number was wrong in the header. It is the second part of the padya vidya series from SrI rAyalu as indicated correctly in the title of the article. And also, thanks PRK gArU for pointing out the shuffling of words and the correct version of SrInAtha's cATuvu -- It should be: jonna kali, jonna yamabali, jonnannamu, jonna kUDu, jonnale tappan sunna sumee sannannamu pannuga palnATi sIma prajalandarakun.. regards.. - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka from sdokka@st6000.sct.edu) From chandra@flash.net Mon Oct 28 23:40:45 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA04040 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:40:40 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA18429 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:40:38 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id XAA11100 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:39:24 -0600 Received: from defiant (defiant.flash.net [208.194.223.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA11091 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:39:22 -0600 Received: from pm15-217.flash.net (pm15-217.flash.net [208.194.193.217]) by defiant (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA25797 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:40:31 -0600 Message-ID: <30934AA7.10A1@flash.net> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 01:34:31 -0800 From: Chandrasekhararao Kanneganti X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Transformation ?? OR mis-representation -- Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam... References: <9610281548.AA51742@st6000.sct.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Ramabhadra Dokka wrote: ----- x ----- cut ----- x ----- > > Here, Here, he defies the logic... > > 1. The poet was ONLY partially successful in portraying the responses from > the oppressed sections of the society because, the right way to change > such kind of attitude is by 'NOT SHOWING THE DISABILITY AGAIN and AGAIN' > esp. when in reality there is no PHYSICAL disability as such. > > i.e. As long as one keeps calling this section as 'pancamam' or some thing > like that and as long as people do not stop branding a section of the > society, things can never change. Unfortunately this poem falls in the > same category by symbolizing the 'loss of a finger' for generations as if > there is something MISSING in this section in reality and as though they > are not equal to the other sections of the society, some how. Anyone who > thinks rationally knows that it is not true and for that reason I do not > like this symbolic mis-representation. As I see it, I don't think the poet is saying that something is MISSING in the 'pancama ' section, but they are ROBBED / DEPRIVED of the essential things like education by the upper classes. He took the symbol of Ekalavya to not only show that they are capable of beating the upper class guys but also to show how they were CHEATED. Why doesn't he gloss it over, forget that he is a panchama and say that they are equal to others? Being born in that section should have taught him something which we can't understand. > > 2. It defies the logic when the poet says that 'loss of finger' has been > heriditary. "muttAta EkalavyuDi' daggari nunDi, buvva peTTina talli > daggari nunDi, kavi (aBivyakti in the poem) varakU andarU yI "boTana > vElu lEni vamSam lOni vALLanaDam" defies the basic logic. > Why? Doesn't it make sense when they are like this because of the way they have been treated since ages? > > > nannEvagiMcu kOvadaaniki mee nighaMTuvullO > > saapa naarthaalu doraka nappudellaa > > naa talli maaTE mee nOTlO naanu tuMDEdi > > pOneeleMDi, dooshaNa lOnainaa naa tallikE > > nEnu puTTaanani kharaaru cESaaru. > > > > mummaTikee meM talliki puTTina biddalamE. > > ammE maaku daivaM > > goppiLLu veli vEsina kuMtemma nayinaa > > maa iLLakostE goMtemmanu cEsi kolcu kuMTaaM > > > EkalavyuDu dEvuLLaku kaakuMDaa > > tallikE puTTaaDu. > > I rALLu visirinappuDu I poet, akkaDa vyAsuNNi nindincADO (katha alA naDipi > ncinandulaku - intaku mundu jaya praBa lAgA), A epic nE nindicADO, mari tana > BAvAnnE bayaTa peTTukonnADO artham kAvaDam lEdu. It all started with > drONA and now it is going as far as castigating the epics and what else ?? What did he try to convey here? aanaaTi EkalavyuDi baadhaa, eenaaTi ammabootulu tinE vaaLLa baadhaa, dEvuDi koDukulamani cheppukuni aadhipatyam chelaayinchaalanukunE vaaLLa meeda O visuroo... > > > I am sure you get what I meant by the transformation > > of the old symbols! > > No, Not for sure. I could not even figure out where did the poet start and > where did he end the poem ?? > > I appreciate your explanation on what you MEANT by it. > > I feel that transformation of epic symbols is DEFINITELY NOT belittling them > and playing with the sentiments of the society in a POET's efforts of giving > his/her piece, a different look. That forces one to question the author if > this piece was written in a state of thouroughly confused mind. Yesterday's > Salman Rushdie and today's M.F.Husain are living examples of this. > Somehow it seems to be clear to me. Ekalavya, though deceived for political gains, was made a symbol of a perfect sishya in mahaabhaaratam. The poet tried to show what Ekalavya really symbolizes. The play with word panchama, unaccounted fifth finger and equating the Ekalavyaa's finger with their deprivation makes this poem a good one, if not a great one. Actually, you are right. This isn't a transformation but misrepresentation. In bhaaratam, that is. > regards.. > > - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka from sdokka@st6000.sct.edu) regards, Chandrasekhararao Kanneganti From ari@Oakland.edu Tue Oct 29 08:31:55 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA07309 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:31:51 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA22558 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:31:50 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id IAA12467 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:30:36 -0600 Received: from vela.acs.oakland.edu (vela.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.2]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA12458 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:30:34 -0600 Received: (from ari@localhost) by vela.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.6.6) id JAA15334; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:31:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:31:46 -0500 (EST) From: Sitaramayya Ari To: *Will post to SCIT also* Subject: Re: Transformation ?? OR mis-representation -- Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam... In-Reply-To: <9610281548.AA51742@st6000.sct.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Ramabhadra Dokka wrote: > > naannaki kooDaa ayidOvElu lEkanE > > meeru guMDu sunnalu cuTTina prOgresu reporTu > > meeda > > yeppuDoo vEli mudra veyya lEdu. > > > > pucca puvvu laaMTi vennela rOjuna kooDaa > > aa vElu lEkanE - > > amma gOru muddalu tinipiMca lEdu. > > > > nEnu tella mukhaM vEsinappuDellaa > > meeradEdO amruta bhaasha lO tiTTEvaaru. > > naakannaM tappa amrutaM sayiMcadu. > > > > nijaM ceppaMDi > > paMcamu DaMTE ayidO vElu lEnivaaDanEnaa > > arthaM? > > > > maa muttata EkalavyuDu ceppaDu. > > Here, Here, he defies the logic... > > 1. The poet was ONLY partially successful in portraying the responses from > the oppressed sections of the society because, the right way to change > such kind of attitude is by 'NOT SHOWING THE DISABILITY AGAIN and AGAIN' > esp. when in reality there is no PHYSICAL disability as such. > i.e. As long as one keeps calling this section as 'pancamam' or some thing > like that and as long as people do not stop branding a section of the > society, things can never change. Unfortunately this poem falls in the > same category by symbolizing the 'loss of a finger' for generations as if > there is something MISSING in this section in reality and as though they > are not equal to the other sections of the society, some how. Anyone who > thinks rationally knows that it is not true and for that reason I do not > like this symbolic mis-representation. This kind of argument is heard again and again in our society these days. When a group of people were disadvantaged for centuries, just when they find words to express their resentment we say that that is not the right way to change the society! I personally find the above lines of Satish Cander very poetic: specially the expressions that his father could not put down his vEli mudra and that his mother could not feed him the gOru muddalu. > > 2. It defies the logic when the poet says that 'loss of finger' has been > heriditary. "muttAta EkalavyuDi' daggari nunDi, buvva peTTina talli > daggari nunDi, kavi (aBivyakti in the poem) varakU andarU yI "boTana > vElu lEni vamSam lOni vALLanaDam" defies the basic logic. > Wasn't it hereditary? Isn't the Varna Vyavastha hereditary? Weren't the discriminations hereditary? Haven't they been practiced and passed down from generation to generation? To me the author is not saying that the loss of the finger is hereditary; What he is saying is that generations of privileged people have oppressed generations of his people. > 3. The poet failed to portray the real attitude of the daLit section. We all > know that they are not less than anybody and it should be clearly imbibed > in all sections of the society and ONLY then can the situation change. > You are absolutely right in that they are not less able than others. The point of Ekalavya's story is that even when they were as good or better, they were suppressed by devious practices of the privileged class. Regards, Sitaramayya Ari. From sdokka@st6000.sct.edu Tue Oct 29 11:23:31 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA10230 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:23:10 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA25670 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:23:07 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA13373 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:21:54 -0600 Received: from st6000.sct.edu (st6000.sct.edu [168.28.176.249]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA13364 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:21:48 -0600 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29696; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:20:17 -0500 From: sdokka@st6000.sct.edu (Ramabhadra Dokka) Message-Id: <9610291720.AA29696@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: Re: Re's: Transformation/mis-representation of epic symbols in poetry -- Re: satIsh cander's pancama vEdam To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:20:17 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 6879 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Chandrasekhararao Kanneganti wrote : >> Here, Here, he defies the logic... >> >> 1. The poet was ONLY partially successful in portraying the responses from >> the oppressed sections of the society because, the right way to change >> such kind of attitude is by 'NOT SHOWING THE DISABILITY AGAIN and AGAIN' >> esp. when in reality there is no PHYSICAL disability as such. > As I see it, I don't think the poet is saying that something is MISSING in > the 'pancama ' section, but they are ROBBED / DEPRIVED of the essential > things like education by the upper classes. He took the symbol of Ekalavya to > not only show that they are capable of beating the upper class guys but also > to show how they were CHEATED. I am not questioning his point, but I am saying that he took an inappropriate symbol to represent this. When we really talk of transformation or represen- tation of symbols in poetry, I feel that they should bear this coherence to most extent if not a 1-1 correspondence through out. See, Ekalavya himself is NOT talking in this poem but his great grand son (the POET himself as aBivyakti) and also I felt that, had the poet symbolized it as "loss of kingdom/crown/education/amenities/status" or something like that which is RECOVERABLE, that would have been appropriate. Instead, he chose this "loss of finger" which is NOT CLEAR since it may suggest AT LEAST SYMBOLICALLY that --- 1. Things like LOSS OF FINGER can never change (irrecoverable) 2. Things of this sort are HERIDITARY and THEY are inflicted upon a section of people FOR GENERATIONS which is NOT RIGHT in this SYMBOLIC NOTATION and also per the epic in discussion 3. There is something MISSING physically in this section of the society which in reality IS NOT TRUE The point is that when an analogy is chosen, the symbolic representation should be applicable to what the poet is saying through out that piece at least, for it to be called good poetry, IMHO.. >> As long as one keeps calling this section as 'pancamam' or some thing >> like that and as long as people do not stop branding a section of the >> society, things can never change. Unfortunately this poem falls in the > Why doesn't he gloss it over, forget that he is a panchama and say that they > are equal to others? Being born in that section should have taught him > something which we can't understand. May be we can't understand his REAL feelings, but I can call it a good kavita and call him a kavi ONLY when I am able to understand what he writes and ONLY when he is able to EXPRESS things in a manner that is widely understood. > Actually, you are right. This isn't a transformation but misrepresentation. > In bhaaratam, that is. I'll not drag this discussion into something like the "representation of social symbols in BAratam and other epics" and "what vyAsa and others actually meant by writing them"etc., but I'd just say that vyAsa would not have expected that his epic would be abused, mis-used and mis-interpreted in future, for lack of proper understanding from the audience/readers. > The poet tried to show what Ekalavya really symbolizes That is what you felt, but I felt that the poet completely missed the symbolic representation of the Ekalavya character itself in mahA BAratam. I fear that this kind of distorted view may even lead to more illogical inferences like the epics were written by a section/so called upper class of the society for their own benefits..:-) >> I rALLu visirinappuDu I poet, akkaDa vyAsuNNi nindincADO (katha alA naDipi >> ncinanduku - intaku mundu jaya praBa lAgA), A epic nE nindicADO > What did he try to convey here? aanaaTi EkalavyuDi baadhaa, eenaaTi > ammabootulu tinE vaaLLa baadhaa, dEvuDi koDukulamani cheppukuni aadhipatyam > chelaayinchaalanukunE vaaLLa meeda O visuroo... akkaDitO AgitE bAgAnE unDEdi, but When the poet was ridiculing the SastrAlu, epics and nighanTuvulu etc.., and when he even went on to say -- mEm dEvuLLaki puTTa lEdu, EkalavyuDu dEvuLLaku kaakuMDaa tallikE puTTaaDu -- He is again logically wrong here (Per the epic, BAratam, Bagavat-amSa valla puTTina vALLu kUDA 'talli'ki puTTina vALLE, talli lEkunDA puTTina vALLu kAdu...) -- I felt that the poet was going outrageous when he reached this stage of the poem and was questioning the birth-issues of several sections and I feel that he even portrayed the "kuntemmalanu veli vEyaDam" as a custom or something which is widely followed in some sections. These are all NOTHING but conveying his message in a rather awkward and unprofessional and to some extent in an irresponsible way. And when one thinks about the epic symbols from this mis-representation point of view, there is every chance that this kind of --kavitvam-- is inflicting pain on society and propagating distorted views of epics, esp. when the epics are supposed to be the symbolic representation of the culture. That is why I said that he is "throwing stones" at the popular beliefs and epics and that made me compare him to others in that category. I think that answers your queries, Sreenivas. > Somehow it seems to be clear to me. > poet tried to show what Ekalavya really symbolizes. The play with word > panchama, unaccounted fifth finger and equating the Ekalavyaa's finger with > their deprivation makes this poem a good one, if not a great one. Well, that is your opinion but I still feel that transformation of epic symbols is DEFINITELY NOT belittling them and playing with the sentiments of the society in a POET's efforts of giving his/her piece, a different look. srI Ari sItArAmayya gAru commented : >>> Just when they find words to express their resentment we say that that >>> is not the right to way to change... No, I did not say that this is NOT the right way to change the society or something like that, I just evaluated this piece for its poetic content esp. when somebody else opined that this is a master piece and I upheld what I thought the poet was missing in that piece. I agree with his idea but DO NOT like his symbolic mis-representation and CAN NOT BUY the idea that it is GREAT POETRY. sAnuBUti cUpincaDAnikI, satyam mATlADaDAnikI tEDA lEdU... All I am saying is "anyone can put his point through, but one need not take the path of belittling something else for that, esp. the culture, the epics and the revered scriptures" !! Here, since the poet chose this loss of finger as the analogy, which I feel did not convey the proper meaning nor did it do any justification to the subject and also since he went on to CASTIGATE the epics, I categorized it into not-so-good ordinary poetry, contrary to the opinions expressed by the original poster. Not that any one cares for my judgement..:-), I just wanted to share my opinion too. regards... - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka from sdokka@st6000.sct.edu) From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Tue Oct 29 11:54:34 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA11340 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:54:23 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA26244 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:54:22 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA13477 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:53:08 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA13468 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:53:06 -0600 Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA23867 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:54:18 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA846618845; Tue, 29 Oct 96 11:48:07 CST Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 11:48:07 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9609298466.AA846618845@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: Telusa-Scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Subject: Feminist Poem (9), May be not! - From Jayaprabha Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Here is a poem, entitled ' vaaDu dEvuDi rakshaNalO vuMTaaDu,' from the 1991 collection "ikkaDa kurisina varshaM ekkaDi mEghaanidi?" by Jayaprabha. vaaDu dEvuDi rakshaNalO vuMTaaDu ______________ vaaDu kaLala guriMci praaceena tatvaala guriMci sidhilaa vasEshaala guriMci vasaMta Rtugaanaala guriMci anargaLaMgaa vaagutaaDu taaru roDDu meeda addaM meeda aava giMjalaa kaaru jaari pOtunnappuDu vaaDi kannee "vunnatamaina" voohalE vastoo vuMTaayi buradaMTE vaaDiki ishTaM vuMDadu adi okaanoka kaLalO bhaagamaitE tappa cekku raasi prapaMcaMlOni jeeva saaraannaMtaa peelcEya gala vaaDiki manishi kannaa kukkalakee manishikannaa maralakee viluvakaTTaDaM baagaa telusu asamaanatvaanni aakali nEraalnee caliki caccE anaadhalnee kooDaa vaaDu aMdamgaanE cooDa galaDu avasaramaitE nalla cirutani bujjagiMci tella giraaphee tO kalipi yugaLa geetaM paaDiM cEyagalaDu varga saMgharshaNaloo ... aMTraani tanaaloo vaaDi Dikshanaree lO bootu maaTala kramaM lO yerragaa raayabaDi vuMTaayi vaaDu tellagaa puraaNaallO dEvatallaa daurjanyaMtO perigi pOtuMTaaDu naMgigaa vinayaMgaa coopiMcE vaLLuMTE vaaDu boora virucuko tirugutaaDu kOralatO vETaaDi caMpaTaM vaaDiki saradaa! yenni kOTla hatyalu cEsinaa vaaDu dEvuDi rakshaNalO surakshitaM gaa vuMTaaDu! tana guriMci marevaroo vaasana paTTakuMDaa vuMDaTaanikE vaaDu kaLala guriMci maMcitanaM guriMci aadhyatmikatvaM guriMci mataM guriMci maanavatvaM guriMci prapaMca SaaMti guriMci pravacistoo vuMTaaDu! _____________________ I understand that the poem exposes the trasparent hypocrisy of the "haves" at the "have-nots!" Regards. --Venkateswara Rao Veluri From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Tue Oct 29 17:20:31 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA03089 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:20:26 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA02414 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:20:24 -0600 Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA01741 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:20:23 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA846638406; Tue, 29 Oct 96 17:15:03 CST Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 17:15:03 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9609298466.AA846638406@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: Telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Baparao Replies on pancama vEdaM in SCIT: FWD to telusa Friends: I have seen the following posts from Sree Baparao in SCIT. With his consent, I am posting them to telusa. Regards. V R Veluri _________________________________________________________________________ Subject: Re: Transformation ?? OR mis-representation -- Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam... Date: 29 Oct 1996 11:04:29 -0800 From: brao@pollux.usc.edu (brao) Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.telugu References: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In article , Sitaramayya Ari wrote: .... *This kind of argument is heard again and again in our society these days. *When a group of people were disadvantaged for centuries, just when they *find words to express their resentment we say that that is not the right *way to change the society! I don't know much about poetic technique etc. but I too liked the poem. It touched me. Too often our teachers are a cross between DroNa, chanDaamarkulu, and cilakamarti vaari gaNapati. Everyone catches the brunt of their poor choice of profession but I am sure the "lower" castes catch it worse. The young need encouragement to flourish, not abuse. My personal views. Bapa Rao ___________________________________________________________________________ Subject: Re: Re's: Transformation/mis-representation of epic symbols in poetry -- Re: satIsh cander's pancama vEdam Date: 29 Oct 1996 20:00:52 GMT From: brao@pollux.usc.edu (brao) Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.telugu References: <9610291720.AA29696@st6000.sct.edu> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In article <9610291720.AA29696@st6000.sct.edu>, Ramabhadra Dokka wrote: .... >I am not questioning his point, but I am saying that he took an inappropriate >symbol to represent this. When we really talk of transformation or represen- >tation of symbols in poetry, I feel that they should bear this coherence to >most extent if not a 1-1 correspondence through out. See, Ekalavya himself is >NOT talking in this poem but his great grand son (the POET himself as >aBivyakti) and also I felt that, had the poet symbolized it as "loss of >kingdom/crown/education/amenities/status" or something like that which is >RECOVERABLE, that would have been appropriate. Instead, he chose this "loss >of finger" which is NOT CLEAR since it may suggest AT LEAST SYMBOLICALLY >that --- > >1. Things like LOSS OF FINGER can never change (irrecoverable) > >2. Things of this sort are HERIDITARY and THEY are inflicted upon a section > of people FOR GENERATIONS which is NOT RIGHT in this SYMBOLIC NOTATION > and also per the epic in discussion > >3. There is something MISSING physically in this section of the society > which in reality IS NOT TRUE > There is extensive literature available about the transgenerational nature of the psychological impact of oppression. I am not in a position to provide references, but the psychology and sociology section of any good library should prove a good resource. Basically, the child forms an image of his own worthiness and capability in society at an early age, based on what the dominant voices in society tell him. This self-image is an important factor in later self-confidence, expectations placed on oneself, and thus achievement. Furthermore, the child when grown up will, in the absence of other intervening factors, consciously and subconsciously transmit the same self-image and expectation level to his children in turn, thus completing the generational loop. All this is pretty much conclusively established in psychological studies. Landmark research in this area was the scientific basis for the US supreme court overturning school segregation in the 1955 Brown vs. Board of Education case. Exceptional children from all backgrounds are capable of transcending negative self-images and achieve their potential. For more normal low-caste children, the transmission of low self-image from their parents, reinforced by the abuse and belittlement they receive from society in the form of teachers etc. is indeed analogous to an inherited missing thumb. I don't know whether Satish Chandra had access to such scientific studies. I am guessing he didn't. That is why it is all the more remarkable that he is able to distil his personal experience and go straight to the heart of the matter, and tell us his story using a familiar metaphor. Even if he did read the science in a book, it is not an ordinary feat to express this succintly as he did. Is it the right approach? Well, it depends on what problem one is trying to solve, diagnosis or treatment. Diagnosis obviously comes before treatment. Society has to get over its denial of the problem first. .... >May be we can't understand his REAL feelings, but I can call it a good kavita >and call him a kavi ONLY when I am able to understand what he writes and ONLY >when he is able to EXPRESS things in a manner that is widely understood. I had no difficulty in understanding what the man was saying. Does that count? .... >I'll not drag this discussion into something like the "representation of >social symbols in BAratam and other epics" and "what vyAsa and others >actually meant by writing them"etc., but I'd just say that vyAsa would >not have expected that his epic would be abused, mis-used and mis-interpreted >in future, for lack of proper understanding from the audience/readers. I have a different perspective about epics--they are a perennial source of imagery and metaphor for subsequent generations; that is what makes them epics. Western literature is full of reworkings and transformations of the epics of western society, from the Greek plays to the Bible to Shakespeare. Using Bharatam as the ever-productive mother lode of the collective imagination of all segments of society is the highest devotional tribute that can be paid to vyaasa. I would be more pained if Satish Chandra declared that vyaasa and Bhaaratam were irrelevant to his creativity. Then we can say that we are in danger of losing our connection with our past. .... >That is what you felt, but I felt that the poet completely missed the symbolic >representation of the Ekalavya character itself in mahA BAratam. I fear that >this kind of distorted view may even lead to more illogical inferences like >the epics were written by a section/so called upper class of the society for >their own benefits..:-) I am sure they were, at least in part. There is a scholarly consensus that vast portions of Bhaaratam (notably Shanti Parvam, Bhagavat Gita) are later interpolations. It has been said that whatever is elsewhere is also in Bhaaratam, but whatever is not in this is not elsewhere. This is not possible unless accretions were made to the main story (in the form of piTTa kathalu for example) over time; it would not be surprising to find that these accretions were made with political goals in mind. We know that puraaNas are, by their own internal admission, written for the purpose of education (one might call it propaganda or indoctrination.). So what? It is still possible for a work written by whoever with whatever motives to achieve the status of an epic classic, as happened with Bhaaratam. It all depends on whether the content continues to have meaning for successive generations. There is no rule that the epic has to hold the same meaning for everyone; the meaning depends on the condition of that person. Do we read Rudyard Kipling's stories or John Masters's stories (and other British Raj stories set in India) stories in the same way that a white British person reads them? In these books the nationalist forces are usually shown as villains or clowns and the Brits are shown as noble and benevolent. Who do we identify with? Our respect for the bhaarata-karta needn't diminish just because we realize that his social viewpoint is not identical to ours today; we can still be grateful that he, in part, made us what we are today, and he left us something of our own to inspire us in a rapidly-chainging and troubling era. My personal views. Bapa Rao [Prev][Next] From prasad@grove.ufl.EDU Tue Oct 29 19:43:30 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA04855 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:43:25 -0600 Received: from mail1.grove.ufl.EDU (mail1.grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.81]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA04624 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:43:19 -0600 Received: from banyan.grove.ufl.EDU (root@grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.15]) by mail1.grove.ufl.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA29552 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:43:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from pscr.soils.ufl.edu ([128.227.113.29]) by banyan.grove.ufl.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/3) with SMTP id UAA28288 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:44:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:44:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199610300144.UAA28288@banyan.grove.ufl.EDU> X-Sender: prasad@grove.ufl.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu From: prasad@grove.ufl.EDU (prasad) Subject: Re: Baparao Replies on pancama vEdaM > >Friends: > >I have seen the following posts from Sree Baparao in SCIT. With his >consent, I am posting them to telusa. > >Regards. > >V R Veluri >I don't know much about poetic technique etc. but I too liked the >poem. It touched me. Too often our teachers are a cross between DroNa, >chanDaamarkulu, and cilakamarti vaari gaNapati. Everyone catches the >brunt of their poor choice of profession but I am sure the "lower" >castes catch it worse. The young need encouragement to flourish, not >abuse. > >My personal views. > >Bapa Rao This is a very valid observation. Many of the teachers I know had subtle and often not-so-subtle attitudes in their interaction with the under-previleged students. I remember a classmate, who happened to be the son of a barber, who was the target of our Telugu teacher (who incidentally was not from what are called the upper castes). He was a good scholar and teacher, but the way he ridiculed some students was uncivil. He used to make this boy stand up in the class and tell him you will have to go back to your 'ayya's barber shop if you don't do well this year and so on, in very rustic terms. Our teacher was perhaps not conciously malicious - on other occassions he would be kind to many students- but he is but one example of the attitudes of our institutions toward such children. The converse also is true. Boys and girls of the 'higher ups', such as the CTO, DSP and EE in town, receive special treatment. This form of abuse is hard on the lower caste children, as they typically are poor also. I like the theme of Satish Chandra's poem and the skill with which he had woven it. Poems such as these certainly help open our minds, though they can not be planned for that purpose. Kanaka Prasad From panini@sprynet.com Tue Oct 29 21:56:08 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA05487 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:56:03 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA06175 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:56:01 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id VAA15750 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:54:47 -0600 Received: from m1.sprynet.com (m1.sprynet.com [165.121.1.97]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id VAA15741 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:54:42 -0600 From: panini@sprynet.com Received: from [199.174.141.54] (ad14-054.compuserve.com [199.174.141.54]) by m1.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA25826 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:55:50 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:55:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199610300355.TAA25826@m1.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Re's: Transformation/mis-representation of epic symbols in poetry -- Re: satIsh cander's pancama vEdam To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) In-Reply-To: <9610291720.AA29696@st6000.sct.edu> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, sdokka@st6000.sct.edu (Ramabhadra Dokka) wrote: >Chandrasekhararao Kanneganti wrote : >I am not questioning his point, but I am saying that he took an inappropriate >symbol to represent this. (Rest of a long post deleted) I was quite moved by Satish Chander's poem. I had a rather detailed rebuttal of Sree Dokka's arguments in the works. But after reading Sree Veluri's re-post of Sree Bapa Rao's comments, it is clear to me that one could hardly improve on what Sree Bapa Rao has already said so elegantly. I am sure that just as every elder who repeated the mahaabhaarata story pointed to Ekalavya as the ideal of studentship, every, I repeat every youngster, who heard it felt a great sense of injustice and cried out "unfair!" Why is this innate sense of idealism lost as one "matures?" Regards, paaNini From sdokka@st6000.sct.edu Wed Oct 30 11:58:08 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA16461 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:58:04 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15154 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:58:02 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA18107 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:56:49 -0600 Received: from st6000.sct.edu (st6000.sct.edu [168.28.176.249]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA18098 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:56:46 -0600 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59362; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:55:23 -0500 From: sdokka@st6000.sct.edu (Ramabhadra Dokka) Message-Id: <9610301755.AA59362@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: Re(2): Re's: SrI bApA rAo and SrI PALANA gArla comments on pancama vEdam To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:55:23 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 11482 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Wow, this discussion is getting into more and more interesting twists with many deviations from the original point of evaluating the poem from a literary point of view and the response. I am happy that it is generating light and not HEAT enroute. Yes, the responses so far have been educative, incisive and informative. I try to answer some of the points raised and comments in this response. First of all, the objections raised on the poem were about the -- 1. Symbolic mis-representaion 2. Castigating attitude 3. The author missing the view of the whole picture 4. The author not staying focused on what he is saying They are easy to be misunderstood for - I did not like the poem for -- 1. its content 2. the author's sentiment 3. the author's feeling and resentment 4. the thoughts generated by the poem 5. the overall subject and the views expressed there in I see many of the responses except those from a couple of netters falling in this second category, unfortunately. I'll try to stay focussed on the points that we started with and see how many of them are answered either fully or partially and see what are the points that still remain unanswered. If still any one thinks that the second set describes my opinions, it is a BIG NO and I have already said enough(..:-)) on 'why' in my previous posts. Lemme go with the details of issues listed in the first group -- POINT 1 : Symbolic mis-representation - Thanks to SrI PALANA and SrI bApA rAo gAru for evaluating the socio- biological and psychological analysis that MIGHT HAVE gone behind this symbolic representation, while the POET was creating this piece. (I'll answer why I said 'MIGHT HAVE' in the later paragraphs) The point made by bApA rAo gAru stating that "the poem should have been ended with the re-sprouting of the thumb" or "with a dialogue between arjuna and Ekalavya" is EXCELLENT. But, the author could not have done that as by that time, I feel that he swayed too much in many directions. That is starting with the "ahankAram/ego" of the guruvulu, going to the jealous attitude of the young kuru dynasty and the resentment from the oppressed sections. Yes the voice is good, but still, the focus is lost. SrI PALANA's detailed analysis of this socio-biological evolution still did not explain its continued symbolic coherence and bApA rao gAri suggestions for modifications did indeed do that. The original question raised was answered partially here as far as the issue of heredity is concerned but there is no support for the re-sprouting and its relevance to present day's situation nor do I believe that the epic was written in a supporting tone of these anti-social practises...:-) POINT 2 : CASTIGATING attitude - This point was answered by SrI bApA rAo and SrI PALANA gArlu again. This question concerning the sincerity and commitment of the POET can be answered COMPLETELY ONLY when we look at the other pieces of the POET. But as far as this piece is concerned, there is every chance for one to think the other way because of the swaying of the author in this piece from one issue to the other. The swayings pointed out were discussed in detail by bApA rAo gAru and SrI hari krishNa and the questions why did the author sway and could not hold his focus may give rise to more questions and that's what exactly, is my question and observation too. The questions about --why did the author have to bring in the SAstrAlu ?? why did he talk about "talli"ki puTTina and other birth issues as if it is a custom ?? and the biggie "WHY DOES ONE HAVE TO belittle something/someone else for making his/her way in POETRY" seem to be eternal (Also, I feel that it is becoming a more and more common practice in today's society for the upcoming kavulu/kavayitrulu, to a larger extent than what it was in the days of prabandha literature contrary to what was pointed out by another netter some time back. At least in those days, to prove one's merit people never stooped to belittling others, they produced something on their own first.. I feel that this is a very very sad trend for our literature... "avatali vADidi / prAcInamainadi / nAkartham kAnidi cetta ani ceppaDamtO Agaku, dAnitOnE kavigA nI asthitvAnni nilupukondAmani ASapaDaku, mundu nI sattA EmiTO cUpincu -- anE challenge lu rAnu rAnu karuvaipOtunnAyi I kAlamlO anipistOndi". Does the author believe that people followed the anti-social practices after reading the Ekalavya incident in BAratam ??, I feel that even vyAsa's idea was to symbolically uphold them as ANTI-SOCIAL practices ONLY and not for propagating them, more on this in later paragraphs. But, this poem seems to be conveying the contradiction and seems to be propagating what I think are the distorted views too..) Remember, I said that I liked the subject and the Arti behind the poem but the objections are still centered around above points. Any takers to articulate on where does the poem stand poetically on this issue, and not politically (irrespective of the discussions of caste etc..) ??? POINTS 3 and 4 : AUTHOR's SWAYING and MISSING THE WHOLE PICTURE - To answer this question and my claim that the author missed the whole picture and to answer bApA rAo gAri comments on BAratam, I have to deviate and put in what I my views (corrections invited) of this epic are too.. (Since I too have to sway here..:-) for answering these things, the claim of UNBIASEDNESS, that was made before may not hold here..:-)) I said that -- >> I fear that the distorted views may lead to illogical references like >> the epics were written by a section/so called upper class of the society >> for their own benefits and bApA rAo gAru said in his response that -- > I am sure they were, at least in part... I was totally amazed by this response and could figure out what he meant by it ONLY when he was talking about the piTTa kathalu etc.. in the epics. I agree with the point that not all of us can have the same opinion about the epics, SAstras etc.. but Sir, don't you think that your statement is like stretching it a bit too far ?? I am not gonna comment more on it but my view of these epics is if I don't understand something and if I can't make something applicable to present day straight in a 1-1 manner, I'd rather give the benefit of doubt to the author and start thinking from his point of view to find out what he is trying to convey rather than DENOUNCING it for my lack of understanding. Well, that helped me a lot in improving my understanding and I believe that it helps others too. I'll answer the questions on PURUSHA sUktam from PALANA in another message and for now I will just say that, if people DID NOT think this way, all of those Sastras, vEdas and epics would have been denounced LONG TIME BACK. May be those are the 10% of people that PALANA is talking about who understood the actual meaning of those and I AM NOT one among them and am NOT ASHAMED to admit that I TOO DO NOT KNOW MOST OF WHAT IS HIDDEN INSIDE what seem to be some meaningless verses if you make Sanskrit as the base for that (Vedic language is NOT Sanskrit, Sanskrit is just another language in which the vEdic ideas were expressed, interpreted and to a large extent mis-interpreted too) I hope that you and I are on the same frequency here. And the CONFUSION you said IS NOT CREATED by the VEDAS and EPICS. I am SORRY but I feel that this is again an EXTREME statement, I'd say that the CONFUSION is created by one's own interpretation and mis-interpretation and as you said it is created by those views which I termed as DISTORTED which take the LITERAL meaning of without trying for the details and without thinking about the essence of what is said. I bet the attitude of such readers is like -- I'LL DENOUNCE WHATEVER I DON'T KNOW -- but, as far as I am concerned, a better attitude would be to say I'LL TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE COULD BE THINGS THAT I DO NOT KNOW AND I SHOULD START ATTEMPTING FOR ENHANCING MY UNDERSTANDING. (More on this and the seemingly meaningless "sahasra SRngO vRshaBO jAta vEda:" later) Coming back to bApA rao gAri statement, IMHO, the epics (of course not talking about the piTTa kathalu and pilla kathalu etc..) are symbolic representation of our culture and are of equal literary and historical value. Literally, rAmAyaNam and BAratam are the longest versifications known to history, in any language. They wouldn't have survived for generations and stood against time if they are mere anecdotes comparable to the stories written by BRITISH or somebody else for their own benefits. Coming back to the point of discussion(I've already swayed too much..:-)), Baratam was not written to please anybody ( a king or somebody else ) and BAratam was not written for the BENEFIT/GAIN of any one person or a section of the society. The last thing one would do is to attribute the SELFISH and BIASED attitude to its author -vEda vyAsa-. IMHO, the epic is a symbolic representaion of the good and bad practices and the characters portray the symbolic notation of what goes on in everyone's mind. As far as the history part of it is concerned, vyAsa wouldn't have expected anyone to mis-interpret this incident in his epic as "EKALAVYA WAS A PANCAMA AND HENCE HIS FINGER HAS TO BE AMPUTATED" for the simple reason that he himself belongs to the same section of the society and was called a sUtaputRDu, in those days. The points I think vyAsa wanted to make at this instance were the -- ARROGANCE OF DRONA, JEALOUS, ARROGANT, INSECURE and INTOLERANT ATTITUDE OF THE MORE POWERFUL OVER THE POWERLESS, FEAR OF DEFEAT from a MORE SKILLFUL PERSON NOT BELONG TO THEIR OWN CLOUT -- Yes, vyAsa did portray the social conditions and practises when drONA said that he'll not teach Ekalavya for his pancamatvam but vyAsa DID NOT portray its extension. The whole incident of amputating the finger has to deal with the issue of jealous, arrogant and insecure attitude of the powerful over the powerless or the HAVES over HAVE-NOTs as vElUri said. That's why I opined that the author satish cander missed the whole view. I bet, has it been some other character in Ekalavya's situation who is at least as capable as arjuna if not more, and who didn't belong to that kuru-pAnDava clout, the feelings of insecurity and jealousy would have forced drONa and his sishyas to do the same thing. Yes, being robbed and deprived is the depiction of social ill practices of caste that are followed in those days but the AMPUTATION incident has to do more with the points discussed above. Ekalavya was not asked for such a horrifying and disgusting guru dakshiNa just because he is a pancama. vyAsa was not insensitive to these issues and he DID NOT UPHOLD the anti social practices in his epic. Get the point ?? At least that is what as far as my understanding goes, but there could be more and more factors involved in it but if I want to write a 'kavita' just by highlighting a portion of what I think is the truth, can I be called a responsible POET ?? IMHO, I DO NOT THINK SO... regards.. - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka from sdokka@st6000.sct.edu) P.S. : Sorry for the long post but I couldn't have answered all those points without spanning this far...:-) and as always your comments/criticism are welcome !! From cjampala@dayton.net Wed Oct 30 13:31:30 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA18408 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:31:22 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA17129 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:31:21 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA18443 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:30:08 -0600 Received: from zen.dayton.net ([199.218.243.2]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA18434 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:30:05 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net (orac.dayton.net [199.218.243.1]) by zen.dayton.net (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA15969 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:27:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:23:44 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: *Will post to SCIT also* Subject: Re: Re(2): Re's: SrI bApA rAo and SrI PALANA gArla comments on pancama vEdam In-Reply-To: <9610301755.AA59362@st6000.sct.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Ramabhadra Dokka wrote: > POINTS 3 and 4 : AUTHOR's SWAYING and MISSING THE WHOLE PICTURE > > - To answer this question and my claim that the author missed the whole > picture and to answer bApA rAo gAri comments on BAratam, I have to > deviate and put in what I my views (corrections invited) of this epic > are too.. (Since I too have to sway here..:-) for answering these things, > the claim of UNBIASEDNESS, that was made before may not hold here..:-)) > > Coming back to the point of discussion(I've already swayed too much..:-)), The word 'sway' occurs several times in this post. Just to be sure that I am not misunderstanding the author, is the word meant to be 'sway' or 'stray'? Regards. --- V. Chowdary Jampala From prasad@kodak.com Wed Oct 30 15:32:25 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20218 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:32:17 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA19229 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:32:16 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA18994 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:31:02 -0600 Received: from kodakr.kodak.com ([150.220.251.69]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id PAA18983 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:30:59 -0600 Received: from 129.126.186.201 ([129.126.186.201]) by kodakr.kodak.com with SMTP id AA26486 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:31:05 -0500 Message-Id: <3277C9D4.239F@kodak.com> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:34:47 -0500 From: "Prasad A. Chodavarapu" Reply-To: prasad@kodak.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Subject: poems of satish chander and jayaprabha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks to veluri rao garu for posting two very powerful poems from satish chander and jayaprabha. both "pancama vEdam" and "vaaDu dEvuDi rakshaNalO vuMTaaDu" are really effective pieces, written in a simple language. while one portrays the society which belittles, oppresses and harasses a section of its people based on birth, the other exposes the hypocrisy of those fortunate to lead a good life in going about it as if it is the same case for all. while the former's appeal was both to the heart as well as the intellect, attributable to "vastuvu" and symbolism, respectively, the latter just pierced its way to the heart. it was plain speaking,in a very effective way. i particularly felt the pinch when reading the latter. how sad that the whole world now thinks that the path to success necessarily passes thru selfishness. regards prasad -- 26 H, Norwich Dr., Rochester NY 14624 Phones: (716)594-9413(R) and (716)726-9887(O) Fax: (716)253-1542 From sdokka@st6000.sct.edu Wed Oct 30 15:48:00 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20493 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:47:56 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA19594 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:47:54 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA19124 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:46:40 -0600 Received: from st6000.sct.edu (st6000.sct.edu [168.28.176.249]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id PAA19115 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:46:35 -0600 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61244; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:44:58 -0500 From: sdokka@st6000.sct.edu (Ramabhadra Dokka) Message-Id: <9610302144.AA61244@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - response from a friend.. To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:44:58 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 5131 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Here are some very interesting comments from one of my friends who as a matter of fact spoke to Mr. satIsh candra. This friend of mine asked me to post it on his behalf. You can direct your comments/criticism to me at sdokka@st6000.sct.edu... regards, - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka) ******* Mr. satIsh cander seems to have identified himself with a movement and obviously is getting fame using the movement and like a politician, he seems to be caring less for the truth in the statements that he issues. I really can not call his statements as POETRY for the twisting of facts and the mis-interpretation of the epic. Coming to the point of truth in his statements in his 'pancama vEdam', it is very clear that the poet has no knowledge of BAratam and about the political situations prevailing in those days. Those who have STUDIED mahABArata can clearly understand what Ekalavya's position was and how much of the caste issue was involved in the amputation of his finger. BTW, Does anyone care for the truth of which thumb was amputated _ It is NOT the right thumb as per popular belief, it is the other and that is the reason Ekalavya could participate in the BArata war. People who want to know the truth may check the references once again. Here is the true story for those who care for facts -- Archery was considered to be the royal art/education in those days and it was strictly monitored by the kings and ministers, because of the perils involved to the society. Just to make it clear, it was like issuing a gun license that is strictly monitored and controlled by the Govt., these days. Unnecessary possession of an AK-47 like weapon was a crime and the culprit would face severe punishment including beheading. Refer to dhanurvEda (updavEdam of yajurvEda) for an account of all this, it is far beyond the pancama vEda. Now, Ekalavya was considered deserving punishment because -- 1. He learned the archery, the restricted art without the permission of the Army Commander (i.e. drONa or BIshma) 2. Apparently, he has shown the prudence which was only possible to the royal students and has become a potential threat to the throne As a punishment, Ekalavya should have been beheaded. It is drONa who protected him from such severe punishment and the issue was settled with a finger. BTW, Ekalavya did lose his LEFT hand's thumb and he DID participate in the mahA- BArata war. As a matter fact, Ekalavya prepared his own bow to have the right grip with his thumbless left hand.He held a position of dhanurAkhya and was admired for his fierceful art of archery. He killed hundreds of mighty warriers of pAnDavas and was eventually killed in the end by arjuna. Had drONa been not sympathetic to this kid who learnt the art by having his guru pratima, Ekalavya would not have had a chance to participate in the mahABArata war. Now, By losing his finger, did Ekalavya lose his art ?? drONa, when forced to ask something as guru dakshiNa could have asked for the 'vilu vidya' from Ekalavya but he just asked his finger. Had drONa asked for that, Ekalavya would happily have given up archery. That is the story of a TRUE guru-sishya relation - NO DIRTY POLITICS OF CASTE AND RACE WERE INVOLVED THERE - Actually when Ekalavya wanted to learn the ROYAL art, he went and asked drONa and got declined for the same reason and in spite of this, he went ahead and learnt the science of Royal Archery.. (See, when Archery was an instrument that protects the country, there was a lot of difference between simple archery and the art of royal archery in those days). Hence, it is clearly visible that it is not the caste or something that punished Ekalavya but it was the Govt. (POWER) that DID it. And it is also clear in vyAsa's mahABArata that drONA was quite sympathetic towards Ekalavya. After as a responsible guru, he saved his life, Didn't he ?? vElavEla mArlu vErvEru rAjulaku villu baTTu vidya vivaramuga delipe savyasAci mIda sAnuBUti memDu tanDri lEni biDDa savya sAci.. drONuDennimArlu dayatalacinADanna BAratambu caduva budhdhi teliyu vElunaDiginaTlu vEdhimpa jellunA EkalavyuDEla vElu nicce ?? rAjyamandy rAju rakshimpa baDavale dharma nirati vEru dAri lEdu dharma raksha kOra tala lEni vADouna ? drONu vanTi guruvu dharma guruvu.. vElu dIyakunna vEgamE taladIyu rAjarAjulElu rAjaBUmi kaThina Siksha bApe karuNa manasu galgi vElu naDiginaTlu vibulu palike.. kulame guNamu yaina kuru rAja BUmilO karuNuDamga rAjya karNuDouna ? drONa guruvu cAla dayagala guruvayA vElu naDige gAni viluvidya gAdu.. And coming to my views on Mr.satIsh candra's poem -- >nIku caccinA artham kAdurA - ani >mIru titTukonTU ceppina vELLa mIda lekka >nAku caccAkanE arthamayyindi.. nEnu bratiki unnA kUDA I padAlanu artham cEsukOlEka pOtunnAnu, ika caccina taruvAta artham cEsukOvaDamanE mATE Uhinca lEka pOtunnAnu..:-) I do not consider this as a poem from the subjective point of view. I advise that SrI satIsh candra should gather sufficient knowledge over the subject (mahA BArata) before commenting/writing a poem in the name of "pancama vEdam". regards.. - mAdhava ******** From narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Wed Oct 30 17:06:32 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA22092 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:06:26 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA21129 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:06:25 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id RAA19468 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:05:11 -0600 Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu [129.25.3.11]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA19459 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:05:09 -0600 Received: from [144.118.12.138] (spray1.coe.drexel.edu [144.118.12.138]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA27690 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:03:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:03:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199610302303.SAA27690@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) From: narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Nasy Sankagiri) Subject: Re: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - response from a friend.. Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Hello all, Glad to see such a dynamic discussion on Sri Satish Chander's poem. Bapa Rao's commentary was fine as was Ram Dokka's initial response to the poem (though I may not agree with either). However, I am afraid, the recent replies from Ram and Madhava border on frivolity. In the story 'aarti', kaaLeepaTnam rAmArao writes something like this: "Every section of the society has its own problems, the rich and the poor, the upper castes and the lower; however, it is nearly impossible for one section to understand the severity of problems faced by any other section - they can't even imagine them to be problems". This statement explains the sort of attitude displayed by some of our nettors during this discussion. As previliged people, we are willing to sympathise with those weaker than us - we might even lend a helping hand from time to time. However, when those weak people want the same previleges as we have, then it is a strict no - no! That is the kind of oppression Satish Chander is talking about. 'koku' wrote a wonderful 'galpika' on this topic - I think Ananda Kishore's translation is available at the BGSU telugu website. Coming to the recent remarks from Ram and Madhava, I guess it is they who are missing the point, not the poet. The poem is not about what is written in mahABAratam, not about socio-political situations in BArata time, not whether drONa was right or wrong. The poem is about what happended very recently, what is still happening today. The image (symbolism or whatever) of Ekalavya and his thumb (or the lack thereof) is used to enhance that message - that's all. As regards to the facts of Ekalavya's story as told by vyAsa, I frankly don't think the poet gives a damn, and neither do I as a reader. Regards Nasy From cjampala@dayton.net Wed Oct 30 17:37:00 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA22416 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:36:54 -0600 Received: from zen.dayton.net (zen.dayton.net [199.218.243.2]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA21622 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:36:52 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net (orac.dayton.net [199.218.243.1]) by zen.dayton.net (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA21820; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:33:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:29:58 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: *Will post to SCIT also* cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - response from a friend.. In-Reply-To: <9610302144.AA61244@st6000.sct.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Ramabhadra Dokka wrote: > > Here are some very interesting comments from one of my friends who as a > matter of fact spoke to Mr. satIsh candra. This friend of mine asked me > to post it on his behalf. You can direct your comments/criticism to me at > sdokka@st6000.sct.edu... regards, - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka) > The fact that your friend spoke to Satish chandra is not really relevant to the comments posted, as his post does not make any references to the conversations he may have had with the poet. Your friend's initial comments clearly show what your friend thinks of Satishchander. Regards. -- V. Chowdary Jampala From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Wed Oct 30 17:45:25 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA22498 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:45:20 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA21739 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:45:19 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id RAA19598 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:44:06 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA19589 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:44:04 -0600 Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA19563 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:45:16 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA846726303; Wed, 30 Oct 96 17:40:58 CST Date: Wed, 30 Oct 96 17:40:58 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9609308467.AA846726303@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Subject: Re: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) On behalf of Sree Madhava Sree Ramabhadra Dokka Posts: (Deleted introductory stuff on the character of Satish Chander) "--- BTW, Does anyone care for the truth of which thumb was amputated _ It is NOT the right thumb as per popular belief, it is the other and that is the reason Ekalavya could participate in the BArata war. People who want to know the truth may check the references once again. Here is the true story for those who care for facts ---" I would like to reproduce below from my original post, titled, Transformation of Epic Symbols in Modern Poetry, (Oct. 24, 1996), portions that may be relevant to the above statement: .... His(SC) poem, paMcama vEdaM must be read in juxataposition to nannya's piece from the mahaa bhaarata about Ekalavya. nannya tells the entire story of Ekalavya in eleven poems and five small prose pieces. (--cut cut-- parts of Ekalavya's story as paraphrased by me!--cut cut--) ka. nemmini nee dakshiNa ha ^^^^^^^^^^^ stammuna penu vrElu dunimi dakshiNa immi ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^ sTammidi naa kanavuDu vina yammuna vaaDicce daani naacaaryunakun tE: dakshiNaMgusthamicci daana jEsi ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ baaNa saMdhaana laaghava bhaMgamayina neruku viluvidya kalimiki heenuDayye paarthunaku manOrujayunu baase naMta The above two poems are from Sree MadaMdhra MahaaBhaarataM, aadi parvaM, paMcama aSvaasaM. These were attributed to nannaya and I do not have the temerity to find fault with him. If I understand telugu correctly, the severed finger is the right thumb! Again, my knowledge of the sanskrit language is anywhere between zero and nothing, and hence, I can not quote with any authority from the vyaasa mahaabhaarata. My apologies!! ( -- cut-- the arguments from dhanurvEda, the poetry following it, and the rest of the assesment of Satish Chander there of -- cut--) "---And coming to my views on Mr.satIsh candra's poem -- I do not consider this as a poem from the subjective point of view.---" ^^^^^^^^^^ I was under the impression that we wanted every criticism at an 'academic' level; not at a subjective level! "- mAdhava ---" Regards. Venkateswara Rao Veluri From harit@co.intel.com Wed Oct 30 17:58:19 1996 Received: from comail.co.intel.com (comail.co.intel.com [137.46.7.25]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA22638 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:58:16 -0600 Received: from ssdintel.co.intel.com (ssdintel.co.intel.com [137.46.3.5]) by comail.co.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28445 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ark.co.intel.com by ssdintel.co.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20428; Wed, 30 Oct 96 15:58:11 PST Received: by ark.co.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06764; Wed, 30 Oct 96 15:58:10 PST Date: Wed, 30 Oct 96 15:58:10 PST From: Hari Krishna Tadepalli Message-Id: <9610302358.AA06764@ark.co.intel.com> To: telusa@sea.cs.wisc.edu Subject: [1/4] Poetry, imagery, collagerie and menagerie: some rational approximations to .... Poetry, imagery, collagerie and menagerie: some rational approximations to .... I am not a connoisseur of poetry; in fact, I am personally allergic to even grammatically amputated sentences often characteristic of poetry, not to mention those semantic amputations with freelance allegories of physical amputations. Certainly, abstract poetry with its instance- specific semantic mappings is not my domain. If it seem impertinent of me to attempt such discussion on the masterpiece, such temporary nausea is best treated by attributing congenital malformations to me. In a series of commentaries, many of the eminent nettors have concluded that since the intent of the masterpiece makes its content self evident, no further questions should be entertained as to its brilliance. I thank all those commentators for taking pains to interpret the masterpiece to those like me, uninitiated to abstract poetry; lest should I be left to the loud applause at the emperor's clothes. What is this supposed intent or content ? Here are some extracts from the commentaries: I am sure you get what I meant by the transformation of the old symbols! Enjoy it. [Original Narrator] they are ROBBED / DEPRIVED of the essential things like education by the upper classes. He took the symbol of Ekalavya to not only show that they are capable of beating the upper class guys but also to show how they were CHEATED [Kanneganti] What did he try to convey here? aanaaTi EkalavyuDi baadhaa, eenaaTi ammabootulu tinE vaaLLa baadhaa, dEvuDi koDukulamani cheppukuni aadhipatyam chelaayinchaalanukunE vaaLLa meeda O visuroo... [Kanneganti] The poet tried to show what Ekalavya really symbolizes. The play with word panchama, unaccounted fifth finger and equating the Ekalavyaa's finger with their deprivation makes this poem a good one, if not a great one. [Kanneganti] the right thumb, or rather the loss and lack of it for some oppressed classes is a powerful abstract sumbol. The right thumb is the most important of the `digits'. [Paruchuri] Castigating? I am left clueless here. [Paruchuri] When a group of people were disadvantaged for centuries, just when they find words to express their resentment [Ari] I personally find the above lines of Satish Chander very poetic: specially the expressions that his father could not put down his vEli mudra and that his mother could not feed him the gOru muddalu. [Ari] What he is saying is that generations of privileged people have oppressed generations of his people. [Ari] Considering the above, one has to summarize that the masterpiece under consideration is "an expression of resentment of the poet agaist heriditary social deprivation undergone by his people at the helm of the socially preveliged and the misssing finger of Ekalavya is a one-to-many mapping from human physiology to social physiology". I would like to go over the extent to which the diction and syntax of the masterpiece in conjunction with the mapping function matche with this thesis. - T. Hari Krishna From harit@co.intel.com Wed Oct 30 17:59:54 1996 Received: from comail.co.intel.com (comail.co.intel.com [137.46.7.25]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA22665 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:59:46 -0600 Received: from ssdintel.co.intel.com (ssdintel.co.intel.com [137.46.3.5]) by comail.co.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28478 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ark.co.intel.com by ssdintel.co.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20521; Wed, 30 Oct 96 15:59:44 PST Received: by ark.co.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06784; Wed, 30 Oct 96 15:59:42 PST Date: Wed, 30 Oct 96 15:59:42 PST From: Hari Krishna Tadepalli Message-Id: <9610302359.AA06784@ark.co.intel.com> To: telusa@sea.cs.wisc.edu Subject: [2/4] Poetry, imagery, collagerie and menagerie: some rational approximations to .... Contextually, the masterpiece begins as an epistle from a descendent of Ekalavya written to one of his erstwhile school teachers. In the process, the teacher is attributed with some qualities: 1. He doctors poor grades for him and thereby deprives him of a good personal future. 2. He teaches Slokas to his students. 3. He is also identified as the "owner-author" of certain sciences ("SAstrAlu") and the owner of a dictionary. 4. He also uses foul language on this student. By all means, the character of this teacher is reprehensible. But who is this student again: a certain descendent of Ekalavya who suffers the same plight as Ekalavya did. What is the master conveying here : does he imply that the entire community of teachers possess the above character ? Have we not come to point of civilization where in people who adopt such practices are openly reprehended ? What new value is the master trying to espouse here? Or is he simply doing the case study of a specific descendent of Ekalavya (in which case, the mapping function needs to be revised). Let me now attempt a pratipadArtham of the masterpiece: "noorELLakee padihEDu maarkulE vEsi jeevitaM lO tappiMcina gurudEvulaku cEtulu jODiMci vraayunadi." So this student writes an epistle to his erstwhile school teacher with a reprehensible character. "'neeku caccinaa arthaM kaaduraa' - ani meeru tiTTukoMToo ceppina vELLa meeda lekka, naaku caccaakanE artha mayyiMdi." Here the imagery is rolled into motion. Granted the viciousness of the teacher, he has no better fate other than being rebuked. At this point, the student is declared deceased. An illeterate of abstract poetry like me can live with an interpolation like : "the student has committed suicide as he was failed unjustly in the exam". "nEnennisaarlu lekka peTTukunnaa naacEtiki naalugu vELLE vuMDEvi. naannaki kooDaa ayidOvElu lEkanE meeru guMDu sunnalu cuTTina prOgresu reporTu meeda yeppuDoo vEli mudra veyya lEdu. pucca puvvu laaMTi vennela rOjuna kooDaa aa vElu lEkanE - amma gOru muddalu tinipiMca lEdu." Here the master begins the vELLa tamAshA - applying the mapping function, we are required to interpret here that his heriditary social deprivation is the apparent explanation for his unjust failure in the examination. No problems, since the teacher has already been well characterized to this effect; the next few lines describe this deprivation in greater detail: his father could not put a thumb impression because he lacked one. It is here that I am boggled. What is this supposed to signify in terms of our sociological mapping ? The father's deprivation has fobidden him from attesting the progress report of his son ? (The other interpretation to that the father can not impress his thumb on the card does not sound sane here). May be yes, since he would have been an illiterate, he could not have interpreted the progress report. But certainly, talking to someone who can interpret it for him (including the son himself) is never ruled out. The three lines about his mother not being able to feed him well because of the deprivation is the part that made the the most sense to me in this masterpiece. There is a minor transition from the student's childhood to infancy here, but that is not important. "nEnu tella mukhaM vEsinappuDellaa meeradEdO amruta bhaasha lO tiTTEvaaru. naakannaM tappa amrutaM sayiMcadu." Again, these lines are a statement about the character of the teacher. In this sudden reentry into the class room, the teacher rebukes the student again for his incapacity to comprehend the problem. What is the "amruta bhaAsha" here? Is it Sanskrit as the phrase is used in the conventional sense or is it foul language as implied elsewhere in the poem? Since the teacher resorts to foul language only when he runs out of words in his dictionary, we are close to the intent in interpreting this as Sanskrit. This does not come as a surprise, given the teacher's depravity, he employs all the verbal arsenal in his possession to rebuke this specific student. The next sentence is again a stunner. Did the teacher serve the amrUtam or any of its similies thereof to the student in the classroom? This sudden transition does not make it clear. In light of our original thesis, we can only interpret this as the student's longing for food, given his deprivation. But the connection with amRtam is perplexing. "nijaM ceppaMDi paMcamu DaMTE ayidO vElu lEnivaaDanEnaa arthaM? maa muttata EkalavyuDu ceppaDu." We now revert to the case of the missing finger. Here the masterpiece is completely truthful to the sociological mapping; That the missing finger ("the essential digit") signifies social deprivation. - T. Hari Krishna From harit@co.intel.com Wed Oct 30 18:00:16 1996 Received: from comail.co.intel.com (comail.co.intel.com [137.46.7.25]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA22694 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:00:10 -0600 Received: from ssdintel.co.intel.com (ssdintel.co.intel.com [137.46.3.5]) by comail.co.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28511 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ark.co.intel.com by ssdintel.co.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20559; Wed, 30 Oct 96 16:00:03 PST Received: by ark.co.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06795; Wed, 30 Oct 96 16:00:01 PST Date: Wed, 30 Oct 96 16:00:01 PST From: Hari Krishna Tadepalli Message-Id: <9610310000.AA06795@ark.co.intel.com> To: telusa@sea.cs.wisc.edu Subject: [3/4] Poetry, imagery, collagerie and menagerie: some rational approximations to .... "maa klaasu lO paMDavulnee, kauravulnee aDiginaTTu ceppaMDi kottagaa kaastu sartifikEtu teccukoni klaasu lO cErina karNuDiki naa saanubhootini teliya jEyaMDi" These lines do little to justify the mapping and the thesis thereof. I have no problem with the couple of filler lines about PandavAs and KauravAs; after all, it is a personal letter. The reference to Karna is again a rubix cube here. What is this Karna supposed to signify, another deprived meritorious student, who could not enroll without caste certificate ? Thinking of the mahAbhArata, this is quite true. But what is its parallel in the contemporary society ? Is it the case that one can not enroll oneself in a school without a caste certificate ? Or does one have to forge an "upper caste" certificate (like Karna did) to gain admission to a particular school or college ? "pratibhaavaMtulu vaaLLu mee SlOkaalaku cappaTlu koTTEvaaru. naaku maatraM avi tiTlulaa anipiMcEvi. nijaM ceppaddoo manu dharmaalu, vaatsaayana kaama sootraalla vinipiMcEvi." The other meritorious students in the class applaud at the teacher's recitation of some Slokas ? What exactly there Slokas and who applauds them in class rooms for day-to-day lessons ? We shall dismiss the concrete and resort to the abstract - some specific teachings of the oppressing classes are applauded by themselves - since the master clarifies in the last line that "manu dharmAlu" are what are applauded at by the previleged classes, we shall obey this meaning here. But I shall be delighted to learn about the schools which teach these manudharmAlu in the entire country. (I assume from the interpretive mapping that the student who writes this letter is a contemporary descendent of Ekalavya). Also, I am yet to see these previleged people who live by these manudharmALu. I see no occassion for vatsyaayana making a sudden debut here. At the best, I can understand him as a synonym for "objectionable". At this point, the character of the student suddenly transforms from one who submissively describes his inability to comprehend his social deprivation into one who can judge and accuse. (I am only analysing the masterpiece for its poetic content and masterly narration, not trying to assert that #manudharmAlu# are dear to me). "dEvuDi naalugu Sareera marmaaloo aSleela bhaava citraallaa kanipiMcEvi. naa janma rahasyaM mee SaastraallO raayanaMduku nEneppuDoo krutaj~nuNNE" I thank the master for providing some continuity here. But it is not clear as to what the diction is trying to convey here. What is the master objecting to here: the attribution of people to God's parts or the God's parts themselves ? Assuming the former implies, in conjunction with the manudharmAlu (I never knew what part of the Hindu theology deals with this description, is it in manusmRti, vEdas or the purANAs; certainly pAlana garu provided one source), the author objects to the various population groups technically being associated with God's anatomy. Also, the use of the word #marmAloo# is not self-evident. Traditionally, #maramAlu# is the word used to connote genitals or intricacies. But that is not how the #manudharmAs# explain the origins of human beings. Then, what is the appropriate mapping that rationalizes this expression ? The last pair of lines do not seem to mean anything. Or, are they supposed to signify social deprivation in some form ? Since, the theme of the masterpiece is resentment about deprivation, the student here sarcastically resents the fact that his people are not mentioned in the "sciences" (#sAstrAlu#). Use of "#mee sAstraalu#" raises another question here: to whom should this possessive pronoun "#mee#" be attributed - perhaps the wicked teacher who punishes our student irrationally ? In this case, what is his ownership over this "#sAstraalu#" ? To what extent are these sAstrAlu taught or propagated in the contemporary education system ? How many among the teaching community are familiar with these "#sAstrAlu#" ? But since these sAstraalu have not troubled our student, one need not trouble oneself about these questions. "nannEvagiMcu kOvadaaniki mee nighaMTuvullO saapa naarthaalu doraka nappudellaa naa talli maaTE mee nOTlO naanu tuMDEdi pOneeleMDi, dooshaNa lOnainaa naa tallikE nEnu puTTaanani kharaaru cESaaru." In this verse, we revert to the recurrent theme of the master piece- the abusive teacher who applies foul language to rebuke our student. The first line is the most invaluable part of this masterpiece: the teacher indeed has a special dictionary for his revelrly against this student. If, on the other hand "#nighanTuvu#" here refers to a conventional dictionary, are we supposed to infer here that the teacher is so crafty that he prepares a choice menu of rebukes against this student by scanning through the dictionary everytime he rebukes the student ? Or else, the reference to a dictionary here is extremely fuzzy & needs to be retrofitted. The next three lines about the teacher using unspeakable language merely repeat the corpus of this masterpiece. Mr. Kanneganti stresses the importance of this stanza by referring to those in the contemporary times using such foul language against the likes of our deprived student. There can be no second opinion that such people should be brought to book and punished. "mummaTikee meM talliki puTTina biddalamE. ammE maaku daivaM goppiLLu veli vEsina kuMtemma nayinaa maa iLLakostE goMtemmanu cEsi kolcu kuMTaaM EkalavyuDu dEvuLLaku kaakuMDaa tallikE puTTaaDu." The first two lines are quite prosaic and do not seem say anything nontrivial. One of the commentators makes the point that the master is trying to contrast the panchama's normal birth with the psudo-ethereal origin of the previleged classes. This indeed is a valuable realization that certainly needs to be hammered into the heads of the previleged classes. The third and fourth lines appear quite out of place in this masterprice. As elsewhere asserted by Dokka Ramabhadra, these lines convey a kind of impression that such excommunication and their being hosted by someone in the panchamas is a routine ritual in India. Perhaps the "#kuntemma#" on the 4th line qualifies this class of women. But why "#kuntemma#" : aah, I forget that the image has to be borrowed from bhAratam, irrespective of its concordance with the context. Is there an instance of Kunti in the bhAratam being hosted by panchamas ? Not that I know of. These lines are perhaps meant to extend the theme of the masterpiece beyond those eulogized by the commentators: of the depraved school teacher who punishes his unprevileged students for no fault of theirs and the cause for such depravity emanating from specific Hindu theological texts. The bonus theme expounded in the last stanza is the virtue of the panchamas in the face of those heartless excommunications in the previleged classes. - T. Hari Krishna From harit@co.intel.com Wed Oct 30 18:00:22 1996 Received: from comail.co.intel.com (comail.co.intel.com [137.46.7.25]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA22703 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:00:18 -0600 Received: from ssdintel.co.intel.com (ssdintel.co.intel.com [137.46.3.5]) by comail.co.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28516 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ark.co.intel.com by ssdintel.co.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20589; Wed, 30 Oct 96 16:00:16 PST Received: by ark.co.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06801; Wed, 30 Oct 96 16:00:14 PST Date: Wed, 30 Oct 96 16:00:14 PST From: Hari Krishna Tadepalli Message-Id: <9610310000.AA06801@ark.co.intel.com> To: telusa@sea.cs.wisc.edu Subject: [4/4] Poetry, imagery, collagerie and menagerie: some rational approximations to .... I have dealt primarily with the "deprivation" theme so far. There are a few others as proposed by the commentators,such as "to not only show that they are capable of beating the upper class guys but also to show how they were CHEATED dEvuDi koDukulamani cheppukuni aadhipatyam chelaayinchaalanukunE vaaLLa meeda O visuroo..." [Kanneganti] Since I have set myself to the task of rationalizing this masterpiece with the help of these commentaries, it is not clear to me as to how it domonstrates capability of the the deprived class. Not that it really matters much in this context, but my primary concern is with the merit of the mapping function, which seems to betray us here. The second statement above of Sri Kanneganti testifies to the existence of a class who try to rule in the name of God; is he perhaps referring to the various political parties and their respective militias that rule India from the smallest level in villages to the highest in parliament etc? And finally, the title of the masterpiece is worhty of a discussion. Reading at the title, one is inclined to say that this might be the fifth important rubric to Indian people. Assuming this to be true, what should be the content of a rubric: a resentment against social deprivation, or an assertion of a reform to eliminate such deprivation ? Perhaps that will be the sixth rubric, but did not another eminent nettor state that the significance of a volume of Vedas deteriorates with its order function? Or, the title is meant to be a sarcasm of Mahabharata, which is metaphorically called the panchamavedam in traditional literature. But that is not the theme of the masterpiece. It is no sarcasm about bhArata, but a statement of resentment about deprivation. In this respect too, the title fails to match the content. Or alternatively, could it mean that it is a rubric composed specifically for panchamas ? I personally expect to see such a rubric be an assertion of optimism and action rather than mere resentment about history (of course, I realize my limitations in dictating terms to the masterpiece, especially when it is supposed to be a voice for resentment against deprivation). As suggested by the other nettor, the title is perhaps a short form for "#panchama vEdana#" - this way the title seems to mean something. But then why not entertain other obsessions with this number five e.g., panchanAmA (against social deprivation), panachmahApAtakas (of promoting deprivation), panchAngam (a masterpiece consisting of five verses), pancAnana (who should punish the previleged classes), panchaSaruDu (of social oppression being burnt away), panchbhUtAlu (essential elements), panchAgnulu (the five essential fires) - just to stay in tune with Dr.Suess. - T. Hari Krishna From prasad@grove.ufl.edu Wed Oct 30 18:18:04 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA23162 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:17:42 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA22235 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:17:41 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA19745 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:16:27 -0600 Received: from name.ufl.edu (name.ufl.edu [128.227.128.24]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA19736 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:16:25 -0600 From: prasad@grove.ufl.edu Received: from Default (ppp-01-nerdc-ts16.nerdc.ufl.edu [128.227.206.101]) by name.ufl.edu (8.6.13/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA20418 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:17:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:17:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199610310017.TAA20418@name.ufl.edu> X-Sender: Kanaka prasad@grove.ufl.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Subject: Re: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - response from a friend.. Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) The poem is not about what is written >in mahABAratam, not about socio-political situations in BArata time, not >whether drONa was right or wrong. The poem is about what happended very >recently, what is still happening today. The image (symbolism or whatever) >of Ekalavya and his thumb (or the lack thereof) is used to enhance that >message - that's all. As regards to the facts of Ekalavya's story as told >by vyAsa, I frankly don't think the poet gives a damn, and neither do I as >a reader. > >Regards >Nasy Nasy hit it right on the money. The relevance of Ekalavya in this poem is only symbolic. I think many of us agree about what the distilled essence of Ekalavya's story means today: the gratitude of a talented young man from an underprevileged class was exploited by his guru in such a way that he loses his talent forever. Drona considered Ekalavya's talent a threat to his favourite student. Dr. Veluri rightly points out how such symbols from our mythology can be skillfully used to make a point about today's experiences. regards Kanaka Prasad From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Wed Oct 30 18:33:45 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA23695 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:33:22 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA22588 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:33:19 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA19822 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:32:06 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA19813 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:32:04 -0600 Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA19949 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:33:16 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA846729183; Wed, 30 Oct 96 18:27:27 CST Date: Wed, 30 Oct 96 18:27:27 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9609308467.AA846729183@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: Telusa-Scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Subject: More of Satish Chander... for the continuing debate... Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) In subjecting the 'paMcama vEdaM' to intensive post-mortem, I understood that one of the incisive literary surgeons made a very valid remark, viz., that some more of his poems need to be read and analyzed to accept him as a 'poet,' of some consequence. (I am not quoting; I am trying to paraphrase!) I have posted some time ago one of satish Chander's poem: 'vRttaaMtaM.' In this poem, he was not abusive of the the upper castes of the hindu-four caste system. He asserts, and asserts vehemently, how he is rebelling against such an oppressive system and trying to make a perceptible change! At least, that was the way I understood the poem at that time! Even now, I understand it in the same way. I may be proved wrong! I am going to repost that poem; which I believe would make a lot of sense if one reads it side by side with a short poem by Langston Hughes (1902-1967), 'I, Too Sing America,' and I will post that too for your pleasure! vRttaaMtaM haindava padyaaniki atikina aidava paadanni nEnu. vRttaM velupalE uttavacanaMlaa pariBramincina naaku - maranameppudoo punaraavRtamE. nooneku nOcukOni gAnugeddunu nEnu. vRttalEkhinilOni pensil mukkalaa arigipOyina naaku - vartamaanameppudoo ceripEsina gatamE. ankelaku viluvaniccina gundusunnaani nEnu. mottaala kudipakkalO sankhyaa maanaBangaaniki guraina naaku - eDameppudoo kadupulO ragilE khaaleetanamE * candramandalammeeda maanavuDu paadaM mOpinaTlu nEnippuDu kottagaa vRttaMlOpala aDugulu naatutunnaanu. ceruvukunna guMdrati gaaju mukhammeeda nEnoka raayi vEsi vRttaalanu mingE vRttaalanu kalaganTunnaanu. kaakateesina Dappumeeda SabdatarangaM vikasiMcinaTlu kattulaku saanapaTTE cakraM meeda nippu puvvulni pooistunnAnu. - Satish Chander ( From the collection 'paMcama vEdaM, 1995) Here is Langston Hughes' poem: I, Too, Sing America I, too, sing America. I am the darker brother. They send me to eat in the kitchen When company comes, But I laugh, And eat well, And grow strong. Tomorrow, I'll be at the table When company comes. Nobody'll dare Say to me, "Eat in the kitchen," Then. Besides, They'll see how beautiful I am And be ashamed -- I, too, am America. With no further editorial comments, I remain, Sincerely Yours. ---Venkateswara Rao Veluri From vrveluri@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 30 23:09:39 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA00833 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:09:34 -0600 Received: from mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (ns.worldnet.att.net [204.127.129.1]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA27149 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:09:29 -0600 Received: from shanti ([199.69.5.210]) by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA17455 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 05:09:17 +0000 Message-ID: <327977F3.7B7@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:09:23 -0600 From: Venkateswara Rao Veluri X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: baparao's posts on satish chander & Ekalavya discussions - FWD from SCIT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------26295109375A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------26295109375A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Friends: I am forwarding Sree Baparao's recent posts related to Satish Chander - Ekalavya debate on the net. These were in response to Sree Hari Krishna Tadepalli's and Sree Ramabhadra Dokka's posts. I hope Sree Baparao would not mind. - V R Velui --------------26295109375A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="braore2.txt" Subject: Re: Re(2): Re's: SrI bApA rAo and SrI PALANA gArla comments on pancama vEdam Date: 31 Oct 1996 01:25:52 GMT From: brao@pollux.usc.edu (brao) Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA To: soc-culture-indian-telugu@uunet.uu.net Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.telugu References: <9610301755.AA59362@st6000.sct.edu> In article <9610301755.AA59362@st6000.sct.edu>, Ramabhadra Dokka wrote: [ further analysis of Satish Chander's poem ] I think there are a few different (but related) things here, which are overlapping in the discussion: 1. Evaluating how the poet rendered his experience into verse, in terms of aesthetic appropriateness of his imagery etc. 2. A discussion of "objective" contents of Bhaaratam, and their message. 3. A general quest for a way to relate to, and reconcile with, the past in a way that our efforts for the future are all strengthened and not weakened by it. If we take 1, Ram Dokka garu was very specific in his critique (while acknowledging the genuineness of the emotion behind the poem): >1. Symbolic mis-representaion >2. Castigating attitude >3. The author missing the view of the whole picture >4. The author not staying focused on what he is saying Likewise, Hari Tadepalli garu also analyzed the poem from a similar perspective. Compared to HT and RD gaarlu, I am unschooled in literary criticism and wouldn't know style if it bit me in the leg. I tend to use the question "did it work for me?" as my sole yardstick. Like a typical uninformed and lazy consumer, I tend to see stylistic criticism as something for the author and his critic buddies to worry about, with the ultimate aim of producing something tasty for my consumption. That is why I don't care very much if the poem deviated from perfect aesthetic symmetry. Regardless, I can still play the litcrit game. But not necessarily on RD/HT gaarla grounds, or with their rules. Consider this. The thing is a protest poem and should be evaluated on its own terms, and not necessarily on what we may think of as the proper lakshaNas for poetry in general. For instance, isn't it perfectly consistent for a protest poem to have a castigating tone? Will we complain that a rap song is angry and abusive in tone and lacking in melody, or that a rock-and-roll song has cacophonous parts, when that's the whole point of the genre? (At least we can complain, but it won't be taken seriously by the singer. He might tell us to take our criticism to the nearest classical concert.) I think what's happening in the poem is that the elements chosen by the poet, including the teacher, Bhaaratam, manuvu, saastraalu, sanskrit &c are simply pegs for him to hang his feelings and protest on. If he is protesting and rebelling against the symbols of society, including Bhaaratam, why should he remain faithful to a literal reading or Bhaaratam? The creative effort here is all about "transforming" established symbols, so I think he is under no obligation to stay faithful to the structure and verities of the symbols in a literal sense. In fact, a better litcritter than me might be able to make a case that had he stayed faithful, he would be defeating his purpose, which is protest. By the way, there is a fundamental inconsistency in the way Ekalavya is perceived in the popular mind, which is shared by Satish Chander. I'll point it out since no one else did so. It is that E, unlike his "descendants" the dalits, was not actually coerced into giving up his thumb, if we go by a face-value reading of Bharatam. He could well have rejected drONa's request. Presumably he was driven by his honor and integrity to acede. Or maybe he didn't think beyond the notion that a guru dakshiNa request must be honored without question. Was he afraid of drONa's curse, feeling that drONaa's anger would make him lose the spiritual force behind his skill? We don't know. At any rate, it brings home to me the idea that there are important differences in the way people think across boundaries of both time and space, but especially across time. So, it is never accurate to say in a literal sense that so-and-so did something in the Mahabharata, therefore it says something good or bad or neutral about our society today. (It actually only works the other way around.) The point is that our psychological identification with the characters of Bharatam can only be approximate at best. The life and thinking of those people was different from ours. This is what is called yuga dharmamu. (I imagine that Ekalavya and Arjuna and DroNa would be quite puzzled at the discussion we are having here. ) So, what it comes down to is that we take up the characters and events of epics as abstract symbols which we then proceed to invest with life derived from our own human experience and outlook (the image goes through a praaNa pratishTa as it were). Poets of course will do this consciously, deliberately and wantonly to everything in their path (as in kukka pilla, aggi pulla, ...). That is the nature of their business. There is really no other meaningful way to relate to an epic in my humble opinion. We all do this; by force of habit we come to think that our own personal image is the real thing, objective reality. So, when a Satish Chander comes along and offers us his own personal image, which challenges the objective validity of our own (even unto flouting textual consistency), we will find the exposure disturbing. (Less philsoophically, the man is a poet, not a scribe or copyist. And aren't poets notorious for the liberties they take with the language and their material? After all, their primary goal is to expand our vision, and faithfulness to icons is not even a secondary goal!) I noted in an earlier post that his imagery is not as inapt as might appear (the part about inheriting the missing thumb). But this may not even be all that important; there is a point in stretching the imagery beyond which the poet will lose the attention of his audience, but until that point is reached, he has the flexibility to play with the idea. .... >>> I fear that the distorted views may lead to illogical references like >>> the epics were written by a section/so called upper class of the society >>> for their own benefits > >and bApA rAo gAru said in his response that -- > >> I am sure they were, at least in part... > >I was totally amazed by this response and could figure out what he meant by >it ONLY when he was talking about the piTTa kathalu etc.. in the epics. I >agree with the point that not all of us can have the same opinion about the >epics, SAstras etc.. but Sir, don't you think that your statement is like >stretching it a bit too far ?? I said that there is considerable scholarly consensus that when "jayam" grew into "mahabharatam", there were a great many accretions, and that I am sure that several of these had what might be termed a propaganda motivation, The first part doesn't need any support. It is well-known. The second part, suggesting that thee was a propaganda motive, could use some clarification. First, what is propaganda to some is teaching to others. Saanti parvam, bhagavad-gita, yaksha prasnalu, etc. are all didactic in nature. They incorporate the understanding of the world had by people who had power in society at that time. That again is self-evident--they controlled the means to ventilate and propagate their ideas. That leaves us with the question: were they self-serving? Well, do you know any established elite in any time or place that was not self-serving in their teachings by and large? If you don't, why should the bhaarata-kartas have been any different? We have a right to hope and expect that while serving themselves (as a group), they were also serving society as a whole. But some people today are expressing the feeling that they served some segments of society better than other segments. Again, it would be surprising if they didn't. Is it true? That depends on who reads some of the stories and how they read it. Clearly the Ekalavya episode is an example of alternate readings on the matter. Does it mean that I think we should burn and extirpate the mahabharata? I don't think I ever gave any indication that I thought this way. What it means to me is that we need to acknowledge that bhaaratam belongs to everyone, and that means in turn that everyone is free to interpret and use it their own way. It is perfectly OK to do this, even desirable. The quality of great epic literature is that the more it is read and interpreted, the richer it gets, and thecloser grow the people who read it in their diverse ways. >Coming back to bApA rao gAri statement, IMHO, the epics (of course not >talking about the piTTa kathalu and pilla kathalu etc..) are symbolic >representation of our culture and are of equal literary and historical >value. Literally, rAmAyaNam and BAratam are the longest versifications >known to history, in any language. They wouldn't have survived for >generations and stood against time if they are mere anecdotes comparable >to the stories written by BRITISH or somebody else for their own benefits. I didn't get into a comparative evaluation of the literary merits of our epics and British literature and I won't do it now. >Coming back to the point of discussion(I've already swayed too much..:-)), >Baratam was not written to please anybody ( a king or somebody else ) and >BAratam was not written for the BENEFIT/GAIN of any one person or a section >of the society. The last thing one would do is to attribute the SELFISH >and BIASED attitude to its author -vEda vyAsa-. IMHO, the epic is a symbolic >representaion of the good and bad practices and the characters portray the >symbolic notation of what goes on in everyone's mind. As far as the history >part of it is concerned, vyAsa wouldn't have expected anyone to mis-interpret >this incident in his epic as "EKALAVYA WAS A PANCAMA AND HENCE HIS FINGER HAS >TO BE AMPUTATED" for the simple reason that he himself belongs to the same >section of the society and was called a sUtaputRDu, in those days. The points >I think vyAsa wanted to make at this instance were the I agree that the intent of the narrative and the manner of its use by the poet are two entirely different things. The question is whether we agree that it is legitimate for the poet to stray from a standard interpretation of the narrative. .... >At least that is what as far as my understanding goes, but there could be >more and more factors involved in it but if I want to write a 'kavita' just >by highlighting a portion of what I think is the truth, can I be called a >responsible POET ?? IMHO, I DO NOT THINK SO... We may differ on this, but my view is that a poet's primary job description is to tell us as clearly and truthfully as possible how he sees the world. Others who take action based on the poet's words are responsible for their own actions. My personal views. Bapa Rao --------------26295109375A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="braore3.txt" Subject: Re: [3/4] Poetry, imagery, collagerie and menagerie: some rational approximations to .... Date: 30 Oct 1996 09:27:04 GMT From: brao@pollux.usc.edu (brao) Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA To: soc-culture-indian-telugu@uunet.uu.net Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.telugu References: <3276C4DB.15FB7483@venkata.co.intel.com> In article <3276C4DB.15FB7483@venkata.co.intel.com>, Hari Krishna Tadepalli wrote: [ very incisive and entertaining analysis deleted. ] I think your abstraction process should go a little further--the teacher, marks obtained by the student etc. are all symbolic of a state of mind and a relationship to society, but you don't need me to tell you that. Manu dharma saastraalu or vedas need not be literally taught or followed in school; the author resents the system for his despair arising from a feeling of being "beaten down" by society; and the teacher and the classroom are just channels for articulating the resentment and unhappiness. The "kuntemma" bit may be a bit of a stretch, but let me take a shot: Kunti's real problem (if we forget the surya bhagavaanuDu story for a moment) was premarital sex and probably miscagenation. Under manu-dharma saastraalu she and her issue were probably prime candidates for panchamahood. She escaped that fate by making a terrible choice of abandoning her infant. The author empathizes with her condition, and speaks with understanding of the many kuntemmas who didn't quite make it in society and ended up in the pancha of the panchama community. As you said, he had a need to stay with the Bharatam theme; maybe he wobbled a bit and took an extra step when jumping off that balance beam. So the thing isn't a perfect 10. But it's got to score in the high 9's for generating all this thought and discussion, I think. My personal views. Bapa Rao --------------26295109375A-- From juvvadi@horizoncomp.com Thu Oct 31 09:24:17 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA05881 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:24:12 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02471 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:24:11 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id JAA22712 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:22:58 -0600 Received: from cygnus.horizoncomp.com (cygnus.horizoncomp.com [204.91.181.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id JAA22703 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:22:55 -0600 Received: (from juvvadi@localhost) by cygnus.horizoncomp.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA10364; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:24:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:24:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199610311624.LAA10364@cygnus.horizoncomp.com> From: "Ramana R. Juvvadi" To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Subject: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - response from a friend.. In-Reply-To: <9610302144.AA61244@st6000.sct.edu> References: <9610302144.AA61244@st6000.sct.edu> Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) [I didn't read the original Satish Chander's poem. Blame it on my inability to read Romanized Telugu even in RIT!. I am replying only to Dokka's friend's posting] Ramabhadra Dokka writes: > BTW, Does anyone care for the truth of which thumb was amputated _ It > is NOT the right thumb as per popular belief, it is the other and that As Veluri Venkateshwar Rao garu already demonstrated, this statement is clearly false. > is the reason Ekalavya could participate in the BArata war. People who I don't ever remember reading an instance of Ekalavya participating in Mahabharata war. Some proof is required before anybody can believe this. > Archery was considered to be the royal art/education in those days and it > was strictly monitored by the kings and ministers, because of the perils > involved to the society. Just to make it clear, it was like issuing a > gun license that is strictly monitored and controlled by the Govt., these > days. Unnecessary possession of an AK-47 like weapon was a crime and the > culprit would face severe punishment including beheading. That is an interesting explanation but not very convincing. It is very easy to concoct a theory if one doesn't have to substantiate it. You need to produce some evidence that learning archery was indeed considered rAja drOham those days. Arjuna refused to fight Karna only because Karna was considered a soota putra. If your assertion was true, how did Karna challenge Arjuna without fear of being tried for rAja drOham? > As a punishment, Ekalavya should have been beheaded. It is drONa who protected > him from such severe punishment and the issue was settled with a finger. BTW, This explanation is even more bizarre. Ramana From vrveluri@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 31 09:35:33 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA06081 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:35:28 -0600 Received: from mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (ns.worldnet.att.net [204.127.129.1]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02708 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:35:27 -0600 Received: from shanti ([199.69.4.115]) by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA4426; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:35:24 +0000 Message-ID: <327A0AB1.3BAC@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 08:35:29 -0600 From: Venkateswara Rao Veluri X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu CC: srik@lig.di.epf1.ch Subject: [Fwd: Re: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - response from a friend..] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2E43C896A85" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2E43C896A85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello friends: i am forwarding a post by srikanth bandi that has appeared on scit. i am doing it in the hope he would not have any serious objections! well! if he has, it is too late and i apologise! - v r veluri --------------2E43C896A85 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Path: netnews.worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!infoserver.bgsu.edu!scit From: srikanth.bandi@zippo.com Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.telugu Subject: Re: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - response from a friend.. Date: 31 Oct 1996 13:49:41 GMT Organization: Zippo Lines: 79 Approved: scit@icarve2.me.wisc.edu (via auto-moderator) Message-ID: <55abt1$l24@lex.zippo.com> References: <199610302303.SAA27690@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <558rmn$e6i@newstand.syr.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sai.bgsu.edu X-Newsreader: MsgFilt v1.3 To: scit@icarve2.me.wisc.edu Originator: scit@sai.bgsu.edu In article <558rmn$e6i@newstand.syr.edu>, kamala@top.cis.syr.edu says... > >In article <199610302303.SAA27690@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Nasy Sankagiri) writes: >>Hello all, >>Coming to the recent remarks from Ram and Madhava, I guess it is they who >>are missing the point, not the poet. The poem is not about what is written >>in mahABAratam, not about socio-political situations in BArata time, not >>whether drONa was right or wrong. The poem is about what happended very >>recently, what is still happening today. The image (symbolism or whatever) >>of Ekalavya and his thumb (or the lack thereof) is used to enhance that >>message - that's all. As regards to the facts of Ekalavya's story as told >>by vyAsa, I frankly don't think the poet gives a damn, and neither do I as >>a reader. > >can someone explain to me why we are having problems understanding >or taking the poem at its face value ?! such comparisons, i mean >using ekalavya's severed thumb to depict the lost opportunities >of the oppressed, have been used many times in many languages. >i can quote many many hindi poems that i read as a part of my >high school curriculum where such symbolism was used to comment >on current situations... > >or is there a larger issue at stake here: that of the deep rooted >divisions between the haves and the have-nots even though we all >would like to think otherwise ?! please enlighten me !!! > >kamala My mundane interpretation would be based on the dichotomy between art on one hand real life on the other. I contend that - and some people have expressed this already - problem is arising out of confusing one for the other. It may be true that art imitates life but both are separated by a boundary, however amorphous and blurred it may be. Once real life entities transgress this boundary, they are transformed into symbols to become 'artistic' expressions. To give a simple example, take film songs. The interpretation of a film song with strict adherence to factual authenticity of real life makes complete non-sense of it. You don't find a man and woman jumping around trees and gardens however deeply in love they are. (In fact you are more likely to find them sitting in a corner and enjoy their solitude). The same principle applies to dance dramas, or painting, or sculpture or literature or virtually any other art form. Real life provides a focal point, but to create an art out of it, the artist has to apply a lens to it and distort it - albeit aesthetically. The critics of poem Dr.vEluri posted can live with these art forms which violate real life logic every minute, but the former throws them off balance allegedly for its deplorable lack of authentic history. In my opinion there is only one reason for this attitude - it's political message. Since protest politics can not be attacked directly - because that makes them branded as reactionaries - they complain that poem is not sticking to historical truths inspite of the fact that portraying history is not the business of poetry any more than portraying real life is the business of film songs. Since film songs are harmless and apolitical by and large they are acceptable form of art. But above poem is not 'acceptable' as poetry as long as it carries a political message and hence a danger to the established order. -srikanth (srik@lig.di.epfl.ch) > >-- > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >2-120 CIS, 111 College Place, Syracuse University, Syracuse NY 13244 >URL: http://www.cis.syr.edu/~kamala/ --------------2E43C896A85-- From sdokka@st6000.sct.edu Thu Oct 31 10:22:59 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA06777 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:22:53 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA03551 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:22:51 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id KAA23006 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:21:38 -0600 Received: from st6000.sct.edu (st6000.sct.edu [168.28.176.249]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id KAA22997 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:21:11 -0600 Received: by st6000.sct.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44308; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:19:37 -0500 From: sdokka@st6000.sct.edu (Ramabhadra Dokka) Message-Id: <9610311619.AA44308@st6000.sct.edu> Subject: Re(3): pancama vEdam - ravi gAncanidi kavi gAncunu, May be not... To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:19:37 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 6057 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) I wish this is last of my posts on this subject before the unanswered issues about the poem are diluted into remarks branding the opinions as 'frivolous' and otherwise...:-) Nasy gAru said : > Coming to the recent remarks from Ram and mAdhava, I guess it is they who > missed the point, not the poet. The poem is not about what is written in.. You MAY BE right Nasy. Please refer to my previous posts, I said what I thought the poem was talking about. I never questioned the subject of the poem and I do not see if anyone missed any point on this point.:-) The objections were raised after analyzing a literary professor's evaluation and a certification that was issued and another's inference from the insight of finding new TRUTH in the OLD epics. > As regards to the facts of Ekalavya's story as told by vyAsa, I frankly > think the poet gives a damn, and neither do I as a reader.. Good for you if you don't care, but I have to disagree with you when you said that the poet doesn't even care for facts, in a poem for which some claims of "TRANSFORMATION or SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION" have been made so loud. One obviously questions how far that is TRUE ?? You may say, that this is again about the claims on the poem and NOT the poem itself and I guess you are right now... I too started NOT caring a damn for these claims...:-) Kamala wrote : > Can someone explain to me why we are having problems understanding or > taking the poem at its face value If we do that kamala, what about the tags that are associated with/awarded to it like TRANSFORMATION OF EPIC SYMBOLS....etc...:-) The point that you have read many Hindi poems with such symbolic representations, doesn't answer the question if it was done RIGHT in this piece or in any of those poems. I must admit that my Hindi skills may be much poorer than what you think your telugu skills are. So, I think we agree upon the point that several people see different things from different view points for various reasons. > Or is it a larger issue at stake ?? No nothing larger than -- some one felt it was a great piece and others felt that it may not be true and pointed out why they think so. That's all.. -- I refrain from commenting on how much political issue was involved in writing this poem and some other view points raised by SrIkanth and mAdhava in that direction. I do not know much about political correctness and all I am talking about is poetic justification, literally. May peace be bestowed upon everyone. Dr. Jampala had a problem UNDERSTANDING the word "SWAY" -- I may not be good at English but here is what I found in my copy of websters - SWAY vb - 1. to swing gently from side to side 2. Rule, Govern 3. to cause to swing from side to side 4. Bend, swerve see Also. influence, oscillate, fluctuate, vibrate, waver. I thought I was referring to the very first meaning that is indicated but I am NOT real sure if I am SWAYING or STRAYing in either direction. Anyway, I thought that this was far from the point of discussion but I am glad as long as it helps somebody UNDERSTAND what I am saying. and SrI vElUri while posting some thing for the continuing debate and while commenting about the post-mortem of the previous poem, PARA-PHRASED -- > some more of his poems need to be read and analyzed TO ACCEPT HIM AS A POET I thought my post said that we need more of his works to assert the SINCERITY and the COMMITMENT from the POET and NOT for ACCEPTING him as POET OR to grade him and let him join the school of graduate POETS or something like that.. After all, everyone has to be one's own judge especially in matters of POETRY and other writing skills. One may write with a motive but whether the readers accept it or not definitely depends upon how far the TRUTH is stretched or how much of the FACTS are represented SYMBOLICALLY either after TRANSFORMATION or MUTATION without MUTILATING the ORIGINAL. Some other POETess wrote in her poems some time back some thing like this -- How would vyAsa understand the feeling of what might have gone in draupadi's mind in the vastrApaharaNa ghaTTam and she finally opined that vyAsa wouldn't have written that way, had he understood the pain of a woman -- I felt that was a symbolic representation of COMEDY and one's OWN insight and HOW MUCH the author knows about what he/she is writing. People like muppALLa ranga nAyakamma are NOT new to our literature (SrInu had some problems about my earlier comparisons with Rushdie and Hussain, so let's stick to our own mahAnuBAvulu / mahAnuBAvu-rALLu) but, I thought that she had atleast an iota of logical insight when she wrote "rAmAyaNa vishavRksham" but the current trend seems to be not supporting (even) that anymore..:-) Wait for people claiming to be the descendants of "kaika" asking for the forgotten 4th/5th... or nth wish to be fulfilled and some "mandhara's muni manavarAlu" asking for a compensation from the govt. for the atrocities that her great grand mother faced and for rAma, kRshNa and all other EPIC SYMBOLS ARE TRANSFORMED and the creators of such literature are put down for a NEW ANALYSIS of their UTLERIOR MOTIVES in writing such things... All said and done, Let's not DENOUNCE OUR LITERATURE for our own mis-understandings and mis-conceptions and lack of patience and time to verify the facts. After all, people see what they would like to see anywhere and everywhere, be it in epics, in heritage, in culture, in society or in one's own backyard and finally, we come back to the question that NASY asked before -- "How much DO I CARE ??" regards.. - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka from sdokka@st6000.sct.edu) P.S. : I don't know how much of this message is apt for the CHARTER of SCIT/telusa. I too feel that personal mails would be better, but yathA praSnA : tathA uttarAm and as far as responses to mAdhava's message are concerned, they have been forwarded to him.... "ravi gAncanidi kavigAncunu, tappainA oppainA, tanaku naccincadE ku-kavi gAncunu !!" From ari@Oakland.edu Thu Oct 31 11:07:18 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA07439 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:07:14 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA04359 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:07:13 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA23370 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:06:00 -0600 Received: from vela.acs.oakland.edu (vela.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.2]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA23361 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:05:57 -0600 Received: from localhost (ari@localhost) by vela.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA03208 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:07:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:07:09 -0500 (EST) From: Sitaramayya Ari To: *Will post to SCIT also* Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Story of Ekalavya - Re : satIsh cander's pancama vEdam - response from a friend..] In-Reply-To: <327A0AB1.3BAC@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) I would request Sri Veluri garu, and others who post poems or book reviews or excerpts from recent books to provide more information about the sources. For example, it would be useful to have the address of the publisher just in case some one would like to get a copy of the source. If the person posting has copies available, it would be useful to let it be known. Regards, Sitaramayya Ari. From cjampala@dayton.net Thu Oct 31 16:28:02 1996 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA13983 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:27:57 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA10527 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:27:56 -0600 Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA24722 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:26:43 -0600 Received: from zen.dayton.net (zen.dayton.net [199.218.243.2]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA24713 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:26:41 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net (orac.dayton.net [199.218.243.1]) by zen.dayton.net (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA12229 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:25:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:28:14 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Subject: Dr. JayaPrakash Narayan's meetings in Pittsburgh and DC area. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Dr. Jaya Prakash Narayan, who resigned from IAS to start the Foundation for Democratic Reforms, will be speaking in Pittsburgh and Washington, DC areas this weekend. Please attend if you are interested in the current state of affairs in India. Topic: INDIAN DEMOCRACY: CRISIS AND OPPORTUNITIES ----- In Pittsburgh: Venue: India Garden Restaurant, Monroeville, PA Time: Saturday November 2, 1 p.m. Coordinator: Dr. Rao Punukollu 412-836-0980 For Directions: Call 412-372-0400 ----- In Washington, DC area: Venue: Fairfax County Regional Public Library, 14200 St. Germaine Dr, Centerville, VA Time: Sunday November 3, 3 p.m. Coordinator: Ramesh Ravella @ 703-361-3599. Library phone number is 703-830-2223 Directions: From I 495, take I 66 West, Exit 53 (Rte 28 South) to Centerville, Right on Route 29 South (Lee Highway), Left on Machen Road, Right on St. Germaine Dr. Library on the right side Regards. --- V. Chowdary Jampala PS: For further information about Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan or his Foundation for Democratic Reforms, please contact V. Chowdary Jampala at 937-427-8927 or e-mail cjampala@dayton.net