From suresh@austin.ibm.com Sun Oct 29 09:35:45 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Sun, 29 Oct 95 09:35:43 -0600; AA28827 Received: from netmail1.austin.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Sun, 29 Oct 95 09:35:41 -0600 Received: from varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (varadagudi.austin.ibm.com [129.35.18.217]) by netmail1.austin.ibm.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA75012 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 09:35:40 -0600 Received: by varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for telusa@cs.wisc.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA15018; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 09:35:38 -0600 From: suresh@austin.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) Message-Id: <9510291535.AA15018@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Re: maLLi modali peDaTam ... To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 09:35:37 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9510271358.AA07877@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> from "Ramana Juvvadi" at Oct 27, 95 09:53:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2225 "Ramana Juvvadi" on Oct 27, 95 09:53:50 am writes : > If you want to read somebody like Irving Wallace you should go with > somebdy like Yandamoori Veerendranath. [snip] > If you are of the type who would say I would rather read classics > like Chekhov than popular trash like Irving Wallace I certainly don't want to start a discussion on YanDamoori Veerendranaath on this forum, but I do want to say that I didn't like your equating Yandamoori to Inving Wallace and then calling Irving Wallace as (popular)trash. I know yandamoori falls short on various accounts to qualify him as a class writer -- I know he plagiarised some themes; I know he plays gimmicks for commercialization; I know that some of his stories are too incredible to be realistic; I know he takes the gullibility of readers for granted (Did I miss anything else ?:)) But what I found in him to be different than any other telugu writers is the common theme in majority of his novels -- the exaltation of will. Heros in most of his novels, starting from extreme unfavorable circumstances attain the levels of excellence by merely showing a dogged determination. [Leave his two cynical(yes!) novels Rushi and antarmukham aside!] I did not know any other telugu writer who wrote so much on the glorification of individual achievement. (Of course, one quick exception is RaamaayaNa ;-)) Ah, I liked reading "ataDu aDavini jayincaaDu" of Dr. kESava reDDi too. Besides, I would say that Yandamoori is the one of the most engaging telugu prose writers. If I have to equate him to any English popular fiction writers, I would go with Jeffrey Archer. Equating him to Irving Wallace can give wrong impressions, to the uninitiated, that he uses alota sex to sell his novels, which Yandamoori never did. Books can build people. Books can destoy people. Lack of inspiring books in one's own mother tongue can play a devastating role on those youth who knowingly or unknowingly look for some guidance from these books !! Does anyone concur with me here ? By the way, Ramana, did you get the ISCII documentation ? If needed, I can try contacting a friend working in C-DAC; he may be able to get the document for you. Regards, Suresh. From suresh@austin.ibm.com Sun Oct 29 10:12:05 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Sun, 29 Oct 95 10:12:02 -0600; AA28985 Received: from netmail1.austin.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Sun, 29 Oct 95 10:12:00 -0600 Received: from varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (varadagudi.austin.ibm.com [129.35.18.217]) by netmail1.austin.ibm.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA56780 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 10:12:00 -0600 Received: by varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for telusa@cs.wisc.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA13046; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 10:11:58 -0600 From: suresh@austin.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) Message-Id: <9510291611.AA13046@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Telugu Books, virtual libraries, etc To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 10:11:57 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9510271926.AA26164@sprite.pok.ibm.com> from "D. Sreenivasa Rao" at Oct 27, 95 03:26:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1626 "D. Sreenivasa Rao" on Oct 27, 95 03:26:31 pm wrote : > Evidently, we are overflowing with ideas on the subject. Among the > distinctive ones I saw upto this point are: > > (1) Involve telugu associations in maintaining libraries, where each > assn contributes some material and everyone has access to the whole > collection. [snip] > (2) Contribute books to our local libraries so the telugu community has > access to them. [snip] > (3) Start an electronic magazine on the web that is devoted to literature. [snip] > (4) A kick-off project with short stories from various sources, > like timed-out copyright stuff, maybe even excerpts. [snip] > (5) A web page devoted to Telugu Literature, with more of a guided tour > motif. [snip] That was a nice summary, Srinivasa Rao gaaru. (By the way, I didn't see anyone following up on this. Did I miss any mails ?) I think 3) and 5) are easy ones to start with. For a web page, one can start collecting the information with the telugu text written just in RTS, for now, without waiting for a better software to display them in telugu script. I certianly would like to join the any team working for a web page, if someone else takes the initiative of leading that team. Some of you might be knowing about a telugu home page that I tried to setup (with some help from Padma Indraganti, Ramana Juvvadi and others) at http://india.bgsu.edu/telugu. I wasn't in great spirits when I was working for this page and I would be the first person to admit that this page is very very primitive. Any takers to lead the web effort ? Regards, Suresh. From rvemuri@dasmail.llnl.gov Sun Oct 29 17:53:16 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Sun, 29 Oct 95 17:53:14 -0600; AA01406 Received: from wente.llnl.gov by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Sun, 29 Oct 95 17:53:12 -0600 Received: by wente.llnl.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA03566; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 15:53:09 -0800 Message-Id: <9510292353.AA03566@wente.llnl.gov> Date: 29 Oct 1995 16:55:52 U From: "Vemuri, Rao" Subject: Translations - Damaasha, etc. Return-Receipt-To: "Vemuri, Rao" To: "Telusa?" 30 October 1995 More on Daamasha, etc. It is heartening to see some good response to my queries about Telugu translations for English words. It is impossible for me to summarize my thoughts in one screen-ful of words. "People in the know" know that I have been laboring on this issue for the past thirty years. Let me give a brief summary, particularly in view of some comments I have seen on the net. English became so rich because it absorbed so many words from so many languages. During the absorption process English internalized the concepts and often the original meaning of the word went through a transformation. Even the meanings of words like Guru and Pundit appeared to have been altered - ever so slightly. When it came to "punditry" English anglicized the word; they did not use "paandityam". If we can do that to English words, when we borrow a word like "atom", I see no problem. Our problem comes because we borrow whole phrases, sentences and the thought process itself. Instead of such whole-sale borrowing, we may as well learn English, and learn it well. Except for that lucky 2%, most of India does not know English well. Another point. Why not Telugu, likewise, become rich by borrowing? When English borrowed, it retained its Englishness and borrowed from almost ALL world languages. When we talk about enriching Telugu, we "invade" one language at a time. During the successive "invasions," we are losing what we have gained in an earlier invasion. Case in point. We borrowed by the ton from Sanskrit (most of our religious words are from Sanskrit). During the Islamic era, we borrowed heavily from Persian (many administrative words). Now we are borrowing from English (science, technology, commerce. etc.). Notice we rarely borrowed words from music. Had we dropped our musical heritage the moment we heard a western song, the story would have been different. In any event, according to my dictionary, Daamasha means dividend. I am not saying that the other answers are wrong. Our problem is more a lack of enforcement of standards. Please look at some old issues of Telugu Jyothi where I discussed this standardization issue at length. V. Rao Vemuri From prasad@acm6.me.uiuc.edu Sun Oct 29 22:04:58 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Sun, 29 Oct 95 22:04:56 -0600; AA02969 Received: from acm6.me.uiuc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Sun, 29 Oct 95 22:04:54 -0600 Received: by acm6.me.uiuc.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA01619; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 22:04:34 -0600 From: prasad@acm6.me.uiuc.edu (Prasad Chodavarapu) Message-Id: <9510300404.AA01619@acm6.me.uiuc.edu> Subject: dAmAshA =? and translation of scientific terms into telugu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu (Telusa Group) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 22:04:34 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 703 "dAmAshA" vinagAnE nAku sPhurimchina artham: dAmAshA = shumArugaa(approximately) ?? i don't know if i am correct, but i belive that i heard the expression, "dAmAshAgA" for shumArugA. jampala gAri meaning dAmAshA = mean,average also explains the expression "dAmAshAgA". reg. the other discussion on translation of scientific and other foreign terms into telugu, during the late 50s and 60s, telugu academy appointed a commitee which came up a with a comprehensive report on translation of scientific literature. i do not have the details but probably, someone can tell us about it. i believe, this report forms the basis for all the telugu academy science text books in telugu. prasAd chODavarapu From rkotapati@eagle.navsses.navy.mil Mon Oct 30 08:08:55 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 08:08:54 -0600; AA08593 Received: from CONDOR.NAVSSES.NAVY.MIL by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 08:08:51 -0600 Received: by eagle.navsses.navy.mil (MX V4.1 VAX) id 279; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:09:03 EDT Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:09:01 EDT From: rkotapati@eagle.navsses.navy.mil To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Message-Id: <00998A38.32C98680.279@eagle.navsses.navy.mil> Subject: More on Samasha and Average Mr. Jampala wrote damasha = average, mean damasha = proportion(nishpatti) Mr. RamaKrishna wrote damasha = mean,approximate Mr. Vemuri wrote damasha = dividend I think average = sarasari not damasha As Mr. Jampala wrote damasha = nishpatti and I think dividend and damasha are completely different Regards, SambasivaRao Kotapati. From juvvadi@allegra.att.com Mon Oct 30 08:52:22 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 08:52:19 -0600; AA08932 Message-Id: <9510301452.AA19239@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from research.att.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 08:52:17 -0600 Received: by research.att.com; Mon Oct 30 09:50 EST 1995 Received: from juvvadi.tempo.att.com by allegra.tempo.att.com; id AA06515; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:50:36 EST Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:47:12 EST From: juvvadi@allegra.att.com (Ramana Juvvadi) To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu In-Reply-To: <9510291535.AA15018@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> (suresh@austin.ibm.com) Subject: Yandamoori and irving Wallace > I certainly don't want to start a discussion on YanDamoori Veerendranaath > on this forum, but I do want to say that I didn't like your equating > Yandamoori to Inving Wallace and then calling Irving Wallace as (popular)trash. This is not what I meant. All I said was if you consider Irving Wallace as popular trash and you are likely to consider Yandamoori also as popular trash. Personally I don't take the the attitude "mandaara makaranda maadhuryamula". (BTW, I like the poem very much) I enjoy reading both Yandamoori and Irving Wallace. Sex wasn't the primary thing on my mind when I compared Irving Wallace and Yandamoori. I compared them for them for their readability. It is really hard to find one to one analogies between telugu and English writers. Antarmukham may be considered a cynical novel but I enjoyed reading it proabaly because he wrote it without resorting any gimmicks. It reminded me a lot of his earlier novels/stories like chengalva poodanda, nishshabdam neekoo naakoo madhya, aa ookatee adakku. Ramana From nparinand@cas.org Mon Oct 30 09:00:56 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:00:54 -0600; AA08973 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:00:52 -0600 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:00:48 EST From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pa'ranandi lakshmii narasimham)) Message-Id: <9510301000.AA23871@cas.org> Subject: ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu namaska'rams all! Going back to Sri Ari Sitaramayyaga'ri telugu nama'vaLi, I have a few questions: 1) ra'ma'rav, venkaTara'v, hanumanthara'v - when did this "ra'v or ra'vu or ra'u" come? Where did it come from? 2) Who borrowed it from whom? Was it the Marathis or Kannadigas or Andhras? 3) Is this "ra'v" related to "ra'ya" or "ra'yaDu" or "ra'yuDu" or ra'yalu"? As all of us know, apart from Andhras, others have this "ra'v" suffix in their names and once anyone sees a "ra'v" name, he/she thinks that the person bearing the name "ra'v" is by default from Andhra (even though that person is not Telugu Nadu or of Andhra origin). side kick:----> My father used to tell me that his teacher used to punish irresponsible students saying "hisTariilu ra'vu, siviksulu ra'vu, lEngvEgilu ra'vu, lekkalu ra'vu - pEruki venkaTara'vu - ceyyi paTTu." Any light (la'mtaru - cimminii tuDici) on this? --pa'lana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ._~Y~_; ' (* *) ^--\-/--^ @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+--------- PALANA `__' {===} `__' nlp55@cas.org /_____\ nparinan@freenet.columbus.oh.us || || Chemical Abstracts Service _________N_|_|_P_________________________________________________________ From juvvadi@allegra.att.com Mon Oct 30 09:23:14 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:23:11 -0600; AA09181 Message-Id: <9510301523.AA19902@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from research.att.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:23:09 -0600 Received: by research.att.com; Mon Oct 30 10:16 EST 1995 Received: from juvvadi.tempo.att.com by allegra.tempo.att.com; id AA07527; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:16:53 EST Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:13:30 EST From: juvvadi@allegra.att.com (Ramana Juvvadi) To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Lekha Project With all the talk of Telugu Virtual library let me release here a README of the Lekha project. Since completing all the aims of the project is going to take a long time I am planning to release is even incomplete versions like Lekha-0.1, Lekha-0.2 etc. Once it is open for public I am hoping some enthusiasts will add their own improvements. I am planning to release Lekha-0.1 in the near future. It will not be a great improvement over RIT-3.0 in functionality. Specifically I am planning to add latex2e support for potana settle the issue of ISCII No Suresh I wasn't successful in getting any useful documentation on ISCII. If you can get it through please do so. ******************** Lekha ***************** Lekha ************************ The emergence of free software in the computer industry turns the convetional upside down that one gets what one pays for. A chief example of this is Linux, a unix operating system which runs on intel platform. Despite the fact that there is sizable population of Indian programmers very little free software is available for Indian languages. Mostly, the available free software consists of some postscript and TeX fonts and converting ascii text to TeX and postscript. In spite of the fact that there is nearly a one-to-one mapping between alphabets of diffrent Indian languages there has been very little co-ordination between different programmers. With the exception of itrans, all the softawares are designed to work for only a single language. The chief aim of Lekha project is to co-ordinate and document the work of different programmers belonging to different languages and enhance the portability of their work to different languages. ISC representation --------------------- I propose a representation for Indian languages called ISC (Indian Standard Character Set). ISC is not meant to be easily readable by human beings. Instead it to designed to be easily readable by computer programs. The basic scheme for representation is this. 0-127 ASCII characters 128-255 Indian characters Since the representation of ASCII characters does not conflict with Indian chracters it is possible to mix Indian characters and ASCII characters freely in one file. As an example consider the representation of 'moorkha' 228 176 230 205 171 m 228 code for 'm' U 176 code for 'U' r 230 code for 'r' kh 205 code for 'kh' a 171 code for 'a' One immediate advantage of isc representation is that it is easy to write converter programs from one format to other. For example, there are two popular schemes for transliteration in Telugu: 'rts' scheme used by RIT software and Rachana scheme used by Rachana a commercial software for type setting Telugu. There are several transliteration schemes popular like itrans and others on the net. ISC files normally have a file extension of .isc. RIT files normally have extension of .rts and itrans files have an extension of ..itx. Simliarly, let us assume that Rachana files normally have a file extension of .rcn. I have already written the following two programs rts2isc --> converts a .rts file to .isc file isc2rts --> converts a .isc file to .rts file Suppose I want to write a program which converts a Rachana file to RIT file and vice-versa. One way is to write programs rcn2rts and rts2rcn. Another way is to write rcn2isc and isc2rcn. Let us say now you have a file called kavita.rcn. You want to convert it to kavita.rts. You would convert kavita.rcn to kavita.isc with rcn2isc and then convert kavita.isc to kavita.rts with isc2rts. At this stage let us say you want to add support for itrans. Simple, write two programs itx2isc an isc2itx. Mathematically oriented people might like to put it as "Instead of writing n(n-1) programs for converting between n transliteration schemes, you would just write 2n programs". This is correct but there is something more to be said also. Because of the simplicity of isc representation it is simpler to write two programs 'rcn2isc' and 'isc2rts' instead of a direct 'rcn2rts'. LaTeX support for isc ----------------------- It is very easy to use isc very effectively with LaTeX. I have written a program called 'isc2tex' which converts indian character syllables to LaTeX macros. For example, when isc2tex reads a string 232 173 221 229 171 (stands for v i d y a) it would output a string \cvow{v}{i}\ccvow{d}{y}{a} All the ascii characters in 0-127 are output without any change. Totally there are four macros: \vow vowel and no consonants \cvow consonant+vowel \ccvow consonant+consonant+vowel \cccvow consonant+consonant+consonant+vowel I am assuming that none of the Indian languages contain ligatures with more than three consonants. As an example consider a kavita.rts. Youconvert it to a tex file in the following manner: kavita.rts ---> kavita.isc ---> kavita.tex ------ kavita.rts --------------------- \documentstyle[telugu]{article} \begin{document} This is a test. #kavitA! O kavitA!# \end{document} ------------- kavita.rts --------------- ------ kavita.isc --------------------- \documentstyle[telugu]{article} \begin{document} This is a test. \204 \171 \232 \173 \219 \172 ! \185 \204 \171 \232 \173 \219 \172 \end{document} ------------- kavita.isc --------------- ------ kavita.tex --------------------- \documentstyle[telugu]{article} \begin{document} This is a test. \ind \cvow{k}{a}\cvow{v}{i}\cvow{t}{A}\eng ! \ind \vow{O} \cvow{k}{a}\cvow{v}{i}\cvow{t}{A}\eng ! \end{document} ------------- kavita.tex --------------- \ind is a mode which indicates that indian mode is on and \eng indicates that english mode is on. The next step consists of making the macros \vow, \cvow, \ccvow and \cccvow work with postscript or TeX fonts. I have already done this for 'potana' a Telugu postscript font. I have partly done it for the France Velthuis' devnagari TeX font. Writing these macros is a nontrivial task. Some commitment of time is involved. Postscript support ------------------- It is possible to typeset Indian languages with LaTeX but many people find LaTeX too complex. For them, I am planning to write a simple converter of isc files postscript. There is a nice program called 'genscript' which converts an ascii file to postscript. It has several options and supports rudimentary formatting. One option is to modify 'genscript' program to work with isc files. Other option is to generate an input file to 'genscript'. Viewer for ISC ---------------- One disadvantage of isc files is that they cannot be viewed directly. One can think of writing a viewer which works in X, Windows, and Mac Platforms. Ofcourse one can always convert it postscript and view it. But if a direct viewer has better response time it would be very convenient. It is then possible to put isc files on the network and the viewer can be connected to netscape or mosaic. Right now, importing postscript files over the network is very slow. Editor for ISC ---------------- This is probably the most ambitious and time consuming, but probably the most useful of all projects. There is an emacs editor called 'mule' which can work with multiple languages. Making 'mule' work with isc files is not trivial but if it can be done it would be wonderful. Personally, I would like to concentrate on this once the smaller projects are done. Word Processor for ISC ------------------------ Again, this is not easy to write. But we can start with a rudimentary version and capabilities slowly. Spell Checker for ISC ----------------------- This is language dependent and full-fledged spelling checker for any Indian language is not easy to write. But a rudimentary version like checking unpronouncible conjuncts like 'gk' is certainly possible. Why not unicode? --------------- One advantage of isc is that no characters are assigned in the range 0-31 and 128-160. This is important for sending data freely across the network. This is not possible with unicode. At present, not much software supports unicode. If at all unicode gains popularity It will be easy to write converter programs from ISC to unicode. I feel it is more important not to confuse the existing mailers news readers than supporting unicode. Why not ISCII? ------------- I haven't found it easy to get documentation on ISCII. It needs to be carefully looked at whether ISCII will serve the purpose. Summary ------- We seem to be duplicating lot of work in trying to bring Indian languages into the computer age. My belief is that it is possible to work together and avoid duplication of work while accomodating everyone's concerns. A transliteration scheme that is natural for tamil may not be so natural for devnagarai. It is possible to support mutiple transliteration schemes and there is no need to insist on a single transliteration scheme. I propose a standard representation called ISC towards for this purpose. I have already written some programs which are useful and also illustrate how to use isc files. Program status Purpose ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- rts2isc done Converts a RIT file to isc file isc2rts done Converts an isc file to RIT file isc2tex done Converts an isc file to tex file rcn2isc due Converts a rachana file to isc file isc2rcn due Converts an isc file to Rachana file itx2isc due Converts an itrans file to isc file isc2itx due Converts an isc file to itrans file isc2ps due Converts an isc file to posctscript file Most probably with the help of genscript isc viewer due A simple viewer for isc files. isc editor due Either make multi lingual emacs work with isc files or write an editor word processor due A generic word processor which can work with Indian fonts From suresh@austin.ibm.com Mon Oct 30 09:27:18 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:27:16 -0600; AA09298 Received: from netmail.austin.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:27:14 -0600 Received: from varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (varadagudi.austin.ibm.com [129.35.18.217]) by netmail.austin.ibm.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA42556 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:27:08 -0600 Received: by varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for telusa@cs.wisc.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA15008; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:27:06 -0600 From: suresh@austin.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) Message-Id: <9510301527.AA15008@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Yandamoori and irving Wallace To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:27:06 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9510301452.AA19239@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> from "Ramana Juvvadi" at Oct 30, 95 09:47:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 889 > Antarmukham may be considered a cynical novel but I enjoyed reading it > proabaly because he wrote it without resorting any gimmicks. Quickly, to compare Rushi and antarmukham I would say he was more sincere in Rushi than in antarmukham. The story in antarmukham is more fascinating than realistic. Rushi is certainly down-to-earth and believable. Also, I think, the ending in antarmukham was messy. Particularly I didn't like him bringing god into the fore, making his opinion overt and saying something to the effect that God was wrong. I believe he was not clear what he wanted to conclude the novel with. In his recent book titled vijaayaaniki aidu meTlu, he seemed to have presented a clearer view on human relations. Ah, the beginning of antarmukham is one of best beginnings that I have ever read. Any case, thanks for your clarification. Regards, Suresh. From ari@Oakland.edu Mon Oct 30 09:39:37 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:39:35 -0600; AA09357 Received: from vela.acs.oakland.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:39:30 -0600 Received: (from ari@localhost) by vela.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id KAA07285; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:39:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:39:18 -0500 (EST) From: Sitaramayya Ari To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO In-Reply-To: <9510301000.AA23871@cas.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, PALANA wrote: > 1) ra'ma'rav, venkaTara'v, hanumanthara'v - when did this "ra'v or ra'vu > or ra'u" come? Where did it come from? > > 2) Who borrowed it from whom? Was it the Marathis or Kannadigas or > Andhras? I read somewhere that Rao and Panthulu derived from Marathi words Rav and Pant respectively. > side kick:----> > > My father used to tell me that his teacher used to punish > irresponsible students saying "hisTariilu ra'vu, siviksulu ra'vu, > lEngvEgilu ra'vu, lekkalu ra'vu - pEruki venkaTara'vu - ceyyi paTTu." Good one! From chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 30 10:18:02 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:18:01 -0600; AA09720 Received: from ame.gsfc.nasa.gov by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:17:58 -0600 Received: by ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (940816.SGI.8.6.9/1.35) id LAA15971; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:17:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:17:47 -0500 From: chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (Kumar Chunduru) Message-Id: <199510301617.LAA15971@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov> Apparently-To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Apparently-To: Reply-To. From suresh@austin.ibm.com Mon Oct 30 10:22:47 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:22:41 -0600; AA09815 Received: from netmail.austin.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:22:39 -0600 Received: from varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (varadagudi.austin.ibm.com [129.35.18.217]) by netmail.austin.ibm.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA34442 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:22:35 -0600 Received: by varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for telusa@cs.wisc.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA15122; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:22:32 -0600 From: suresh@austin.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) Message-Id: <9510301622.AA15122@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Re: ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:22:31 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Sitaramayya Ari" at Oct 30, 95 10:39:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 584 > > > > On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, PALANA wrote: > > > 1) ra'ma'rav, venkaTara'v, hanumanthara'v - when did this "ra'v or ra'vu > > or ra'u" come? Where did it come from? > > > > 2) Who borrowed it from whom? Was it the Marathis or Kannadigas or > > Andhras? > > I read somewhere that Rao and Panthulu derived from Marathi words Rav > and Pant respectively. Is not it right to say that raavu is derived from raayaDu, like narasinga raayaDu becoming narasinga raavu. and pantulu is derived from panditulu, which is a sanskrit pandit ? Regards, Suresh. From chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 30 10:24:20 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:24:17 -0600; AA09837 Received: from ame.gsfc.nasa.gov by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:24:15 -0600 Received: by ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (940816.SGI.8.6.9/1.35) id LAA16440; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:24:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:24:14 -0500 From: chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (Kumar Chunduru) Message-Id: <199510301624.LAA16440@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov> Apparently-To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu PALANA writes: namaska'rams all! Going back to Sri Ari Sitaramayyaga'ri telugu nama'vaLi, I have a few questions: 1) ra'ma'rav, venkaTara'v, hanumanthara'v - when did this "ra'v or ra'vu or ra'u" come? Where did it come from? 2) Who borrowed it from whom? Was it the Marathis or Kannadigas or Andhras? 3) Is this "ra'v" related to "ra'ya" or "ra'yaDu" or "ra'yuDu" or ra'yalu"? As all of us know, apart from Andhras, others have this "ra'v" suffix in their names and once anyone sees a "ra'v" name, he/she thinks that the person bearing the name "ra'v" is by default from Andhra (even though that person is not Telugu Nadu or of Andhra origin). side kick:----> My father used to tell me that his teacher used to punish irresponsible students saying "hisTariilu ra'vu, siviksulu ra'vu, lEngvEgilu ra'vu, lekkalu ra'vu - pEruki venkaTara'vu - ceyyi paTTu." Any light (la'mtaru - cimminii tuDici) on this? --pa'lana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ._~Y~_; ' (* *) ^--\-/--^ @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+--------- PALANA `__' {===} `__' nlp55@cas.org /_____\ nparinan@freenet.columbus.oh.us || || Chemical Abstracts Service _________N_|_|_P_________________________________________________________ Namastee: One School of thought is Rao name came into existence during the british rule. It is the title given to the civil servants during their time. In karnataka and maharastra rao last name usually tells which caste they belong to. My ancesters carried the name of rao as their first name, today we rarely see anyone given the name of rao, including my two sons whose names are harsha and varun. Perhaps it was a pride to have the first name as rao during mid and early ninth and twentieth centuries. Kumar Chunduru From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Mon Oct 30 10:30:48 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:30:40 -0600; AA10003 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 10:30:37 -0600 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 11:30:02 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: on rangArawu Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-Id: <9510301130.aa03822@HEL4.ARL.MIL> The little exchange between pAlana (is this word - sarwa-capitals?) and Ari sItArAmayya, prompts (no, implores me ) to recall one of the 'bApu car-tunes' that he used to come up with on movie-people, back in 60's. The one he penned on rangArAwu is quite memorable. But before that, "hisTariilu ra'vu, siviksulu ra'vu,..." reminded me a joke I heard wher the officer says, (must be in Calcutta) "The office is full of Chatterjees, Mukherjees, and Benarjees, but nobody has any energy!" When I recounted this to a Pillalamarri Benarjee whom I met at TANA, he related another one, Mukherjee, CHantterjee and Nenarjee are short forms for Mukhopadhyaya, Chattopadhyaya, and Bandopadhyaya. And these mean, repectively, the principal (mukhya-), the teacher (chOTa upAdhyAya), and the guy who locks up the school at the end of the day (band- close). Back to the ditty on rangArAwu klishTa pAtrallO catu-rangA rAwu dushTa pAtrallO krU-rangA rAwu haDala goTTE bhayanka-rangA rAwu hAyi golipE Tingu-rangA rAwu alarincE vilAsa-rangA rAwu romAnsulO pUla-rangA rAwu manishi madhu-madhu-rangA rAwu mATallO maha camatkA-rangA rAwu katha nirbalam ayitE hAvabhAvAlu pAtra pa-rangA rAwu kaLLakkaTTinaTTu kanabaDEdi utti yaSvI-rangA rAwu Ayana SailI, ThIvI anyulaka sulabhangA rAwu okkokka sAri DailAgullO mAtram yama kangA-rangA rAwu Ramakrishna From cjampala@dayton.net Mon Oct 30 11:16:48 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 11:16:46 -0600; AA11012 Received: from orac.dayton.net by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 11:16:40 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net by dayton.net with SMTP id AA31989 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:16:36 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:16:35 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu, pkrishna@arl.mil Cc: "V. Chowdary Jampala" Subject: Missing posts from the TELUSA listserv Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reading some of the posts that I received through the Listserv made me feel that I am missing a few posts. Following the advice given by Ratnakar Sonthi in his post, I used Lynx to browse Telusa Archives. I was astounded by the number of posts that I missed. Some of them were follow-ups to my own posts that I would have liked to add a rejoinder. I would say that I missed close to 30 posts in the last seven days. I even missed an entire thread (of 3 posts). It also raises the possibility that some of th posters may not be accessing my follow-ups (they don't know what they are missing :-) I used Lynx to go to the archives. The archives were sorted by week. To look at what I missed last week, I had to go through 171 screens, which was a little difficult. There was no hypertext other than for the archive headings. It is difficult to use search. Is there a way to make this more user friendly? Regards. -- V. Chowdary Jampala From suresh@austin.ibm.com Mon Oct 30 11:36:21 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 11:36:19 -0600; AA11201 Received: from netmail.austin.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 11:36:17 -0600 Received: from varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (varadagudi.austin.ibm.com [129.35.18.217]) by netmail.austin.ibm.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA28187 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:36:08 -0600 Received: by varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for telusa@cs.wisc.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA16128; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:36:05 -0600 From: suresh@austin.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) Message-Id: <9510301736.AA16128@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Re: ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:36:05 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Sitaramayya Ari" at Oct 30, 95 10:39:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 552 > I read somewhere that Rao and Panthulu derived from Marathi words Rav > and Pant respectively. I hurriedly posted a follow-up this, which when I read back appears to be a little offensive, although, I did not mean to. Now, I think what Sitaramayya gaaru said may be correct. What I wrote may be just another example of what is known as reverse-etymologizing, or folk-etymology. May be. By the way, Sitaramayya gaaru, I have plans of following up on your post on bengaali influence on telugu names, sometime .. yes, sometime. Regards, Suresh. From sreeni@ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de Mon Oct 30 12:15:35 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 12:15:31 -0600; AA11971 Received: from ktpsp3.uni-paderborn.de by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 12:15:21 -0600 Received: (from sreeni@localhost) by ktpsp3.uni-paderborn.de (8.6.12/8.6.10) id TAA12996 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 19:14:35 +0100 From: Sreenivas Paruchuri Message-Id: <199510301814.TAA12996@ktpsp3.uni-paderborn.de> Subject: Re: ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 19:14:34 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <9510301000.AA23871@cas.org> from "PALANA (pa'ranandi lakshmii narasimham)" at Oct 30, 95 10:00:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 432 namastE! This topic was discussed in detail, and at great length on SCIT/WETD in June, 1993, with active contributions from Seetamraju (WETD's editor), K. Bapa Rao, PVR Rao (now at IISc, B'lore), KT Narayana, Malladi, and Vidyasankar Sundaresan (active on RMIC, and Indology-List). To save bandwidth I am not posting that thread here. Please send a mail to , to receive it. Regards, Sreenivas From tadepall@eecis.udel.edu Mon Oct 30 12:32:57 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 12:32:55 -0600; AA12241 Received: from louie.udel.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 12:32:51 -0600 Received: from snow-white.ee.udel.edu by louie.udel.edu id aa22522; 30 Oct 95 13:29 EST Received: from stimpy.eecis.udel.edu by snow-white.ee.udel.edu id aa13859; 30 Oct 95 13:29 EST From: Hari Krishna Tadepalli Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:29:22 -0500 In-Reply-To: "PALANA (pa'ranandi lakshmii narasimham" "ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO" (Oct 30, 10:00am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO Message-Id: <9510301829.aa01736@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu> The popular "rAvu" suffix is an appendix of (merit) titles like "rAvu bahaddar" etc conferred by the British upon the Indian bureucrats serving the british govt (& also to Indian kings serving the British). As is the case with titles usually, people for generations continued with the titles after their families have outlived their past glories. As said by Ari and rAmArAvu elsewhere, many of the current "prathamA vibhakti" suffixes for personal names are imports of prathamA vibakti pratyayAs of other cultures, mostly those of the BengAlIvAru. (My own suffix "Prasad" (which I dont normally use) being no exception). Thus we have Prasads, Vermas, Choudharys, Guptas, yAdavs, lAls, dutts suddenly in the Telugu land over the past half century. (Isnt time we enriched this list with some gujarAti Patels, marAthi "kars", UP & bengali ThAkUrs or few other titles like "Ar" or "an" from our (next door) Tamil brethern ?). Perhaps this borrowal of titles adds continuum to the history of other title loans like "Sastry, Sarma, bhaTTu" etc mostly by brAhmins during the past. In some cases these titles are the result of migration from other states. Yes, I feel a little stupified that we no longer hold the popular rAmayya, venkatESwarlu, subrahmaNyam or kOTESu of our fathers and grandfathers as dear to us and they seem to sound cacophOnic to our ears. Even more disturbing to me is the contemporary mania for "artham lEni andamaina renDaksarAla, lEdA mooDakshrAla pErlu" like "ASa, AScharyX, lAsya, nIha, abhay...." most of which are sound like titles of old Hindi films and BengAlI novels and are often used by contemporary Telugu fiction writers for catching readers' attention. My conjecture is that any good Sanskrit or HindustAni adjective will soon be turned into a fashionable name for all next generation TeluguvAru. So much for my share of crying about old-fashioned names ! - Hari Krishna From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Mon Oct 30 12:57:27 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 12:57:24 -0600; AA12580 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 12:57:21 -0600 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 13:59:21 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: Welcome to the Group Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-Id: <9510301359.aa10137@HEL4.ARL.MIL> I am planning to post this once a week for a while, and after that, may be once a month. To subscribe to TELUSA, send a one-line mail to LISTPROC@CS.WISC.EDU, the one-liner being SUB TELUSA Real, Full Name for example, SUB TELUSA William J. Clinton (The software is clever enough to get the address - President@whitehouse.gov, from the mail header.) and when you have had enough of this, to withdraw, send UNSUBSCRIBE TELUSA or (this seems to work too) SIGNOFF TELUSA Instead of receiving individual articles as they are posted, you may choose to receive the 'collected works' of a day, in a Digest form. If you prefer this, send a one-line message, SET TELUSA MAIL DIGEST From ratnakar@cae.wisc.edu Mon Oct 30 13:25:22 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 13:25:19 -0600; AA12767 Received: from serv0.cae.wisc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 13:25:16 -0600 Received: from icarve.cae.wisc.edu (ratnakar@icarve.cae.wisc.edu [144.92.44.197]) by serv0.cae.wisc.edu (8.6.12 CAE/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA13133 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:25:15 -0600 From: Ratnakar Sonthi Received: (ratnakar@localhost) by icarve.cae.wisc.edu (8.6.10 CAE/8.6.9) id NAA17163 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:25:15 -0600 Message-Id: <199510301925.NAA17163@icarve.cae.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:25:14 CST In-Reply-To: <9510301000.AA23871@cas.org>; from "pa'ranandi lakshmii narasimham)" at Oct 30, 95 10:00 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] The following message is from SreenivAs parucUri (ATWFP). namastE! This topic was discussed in detail, and at great length on SCIT/WETD in June, 1993, with active contributions from Seetamraju (WETD's editor), K. Bapa Rao, PVR Rao (now at IISc, B'lore), KT Narayana, Malladi, and Vidyasankar Sundaresan (active on RMIC, and Indology-List). To save bandwidth I am not posting that thread here. Please send a mail to , to receive it. Regards, Sreenivas From brao@pollux.usc.edu Mon Oct 30 14:01:49 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:01:46 -0600; AA13537 Received: from pollux.usc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:01:44 -0600 Received: (brao@localhost) by pollux.usc.edu (8.7.1/8.6.4) id MAA24981; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:01:41 -0800 (PST) From: Bapa Rao Message-Id: <199510302001.MAA24981@pollux.usc.edu> Subject: Re: Telugizing English words To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:01:40 -0800 (PST) Cc: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu In-Reply-To: <9510281801.AA14880@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> from "Suresh Kolichala" at Oct 28, 95 01:01:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More thoughts on word-imports: Seems to me there are two tracks by which words get imported: "paamara" and "pandita" (no value judgement intended). The paamara imports are fully pragmatic, and sometimes follow improbable associations. To take a very artificial example, suppose the arts college building of the university has a well-known beehive fronting it; an illiterate rickshaw-driver might identify it as "tayne-paTTU kaaleji", and by association, liberal arts studies might get translated over time to "tayne-paTTU chaduvulu." Other, more intuitive transformations might involve well-entrenched mechanisms, such as a physical description of the object's shape and behavior. Interesting examples for this come from the world of fireworks: "Tapa-kaaya"=onomaetopic "Tapa" sound + the common word "kaaya" for any sealed container. My favorite is the word for rocket: "taara-zuvva=taara+chuvva=a thin, short rod-shaped object that reaches for the stars (Or, does the "zuvva" refer to the sound it makes?). In Telangana, "sura-sura-batti" is used for the common sparkler, indicating the sound it makes, along with its shape and function (gradual burning). On the coast, it is "kaakara-puvvu-vatti", a variant of the same concept. Another "-kaaya" example I like is taabeTi-kaaya for water canteen, which is a perfect description of the object in question. As far as I know, these highly sophisticated constructions are purely non-literate and spontaneous; no writer or committee thought them up. Another example is the turn-of-the-century use of "batikina kaaleji" for the Madras Zoo and "chacchina kaaleji" for the Madras Museum. In some sense, the above technique is "semantic" in nature; there is some preservation/transformation of the meaning of the concept into the native idiom. Another "paamara" import channel I can think of is the literal or syntactic adoption of the foreign word, but subjecting it to the "naluguDu" process in native tongues. Some years back, PALANA-garu posted some examples of SrikakuLam dialect that was rich with such imports, from English as well as other languages. I suspect that the use of "seku-hara" for sexual harassment by the Japanese falls under a conscious use of this track of adoption. Without wishing to be romantic about this, I think the common feature of "paamara" imports is what Suresh-garu noted: they harmonize well with the language, and will work well for poetry. Professional linguists will probably tell us that such "paamara" adoptions are an important aspect of creole formation, which in turn is a key aspect of language development. The "panDita" track is more deliberate in nature, and has the disadvantage that it is confined to the literate elite--disadvantage because of the relatively small number of persons involved in the import, which means the statistical smoothing effect of "naluguDu" (syntactic as well as semantic) is that much less powerful. Also, the prevalence of centralized mass communication techniques such as printing, cinema, broadcasting etc. means that there isn't as much time or opportunity for cacophonous constructions to get weeded out through natural selection, as would happen in the "paamara" track. What this means is that, when it comes to translations and imports, the language is hostage to the talent and "ear" of the person doing the importing. I think it will take a long time to fully understand the impact of modern "panDita"-track imports on the language, since mass literacy and mass communication are relatively new phenomena to Telugu. Maybe with the wider spread of literacy, education and mass communication tools, the "ivory tower" effect of today's "panDita" transformations could be neutralized to some extent, moving back to a literate version of the more natural "paamara" transformations. Maybe even an entity such as the internet can play a role in the "democratization" of the evolution of the sishTa-bhaasha. Bapa Rao From brao@pollux.usc.edu Mon Oct 30 14:07:15 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:07:13 -0600; AA13554 Received: from pollux.usc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:07:07 -0600 Received: (brao@localhost) by pollux.usc.edu (8.7.1/8.6.4) id MAA25162; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:07:04 -0800 (PST) From: Bapa Rao Message-Id: <199510302007.MAA25162@pollux.usc.edu> Subject: Re: More on Samasha and Average To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:07:03 -0800 (PST) Cc: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu In-Reply-To: <00998A38.32C98680.279@eagle.navsses.navy.mil> from "rkotapati@eagle.navsses.navy.mil" at Oct 30, 95 10:09:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for taking an interest in "daamasha". After hearing the various opinions, I think the meaning "in proportion", "tagu paaLLalo", makes sense. "kammagaa unDaalanTe, uppu, kaaram daamashaagaa vesukOvaali.". Bapa Rao From brao@pollux.usc.edu Mon Oct 30 14:14:39 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:14:37 -0600; AA13607 Received: from pollux.usc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:14:35 -0600 Received: (brao@localhost) by pollux.usc.edu (8.7.1/8.6.4) id MAA25462; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:14:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bapa Rao Message-Id: <199510302014.MAA25462@pollux.usc.edu> Subject: Re: ra'v or rAv or rAu or RAO To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:14:32 -0800 (PST) Cc: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu In-Reply-To: from "Sitaramayya Ari" at Oct 30, 95 10:39:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My speculations: Rao is connected with "raayuDu", "raayalu". Adopted in modern times by status-conscious Telugus from the cognate titles of the Maratha nobility of the Holkar kingdom to the North. Possibly introduced by 18th-century Muslim rulers (prior to the ceding of circars to the French and then the English) as a honorific title, again following the neighboring Maratha practice. (Rao saheb, Rao bahadur, etc.) Pantulu=Cognate form of panDitulu? Cognate with Pant (Marathi as in Datto Pant, also found in UP(?) Govinda Ballabh Pant?) Bapa Rao From brao@pollux.usc.edu Mon Oct 30 14:19:20 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:19:18 -0600; AA13805 Received: from pollux.usc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:19:14 -0600 Received: (brao@localhost) by pollux.usc.edu (8.7.1/8.6.4) id MAA25689; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:19:11 -0800 (PST) From: Bapa Rao Message-Id: <199510302019.MAA25689@pollux.usc.edu> Subject: Re: on rangArawu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:19:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu In-Reply-To: <9510301130.aa03822@HEL4.ARL.MIL> from "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" at Oct 30, 95 11:30:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Back to the ditty on rangArAwu > .... Maybe I should add " illaanTi padyaallO anavasa-ramga rAwu" Sorry, couldn't resist. :-) Bapa Rao From chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 30 14:31:15 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:31:13 -0600; AA13890 Received: from ame.gsfc.nasa.gov by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:31:11 -0600 Received: by ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (940816.SGI.8.6.9/1.35) id PAA06138; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:29:53 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:29:53 -0500 From: chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (Kumar Chunduru) Message-Id: <199510302029.PAA06138@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov> Apparently-To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu hai ramakrishna garu could you please mail me the letter you wrote on banejee, mukerjee etc., I deleted by mistake \ thanx kumar chunduru From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Mon Oct 30 17:13:50 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 17:13:48 -0600; AA17103 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 30 Oct 95 17:13:46 -0600 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 18:09:01 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: on RIT Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-Id: <9510301809.aa18496@HEL4.ARL.MIL> Before that, Kanneganti Ramarao is not yet in this group. And so is (is not) Ananda Kishore. An introductory message that went to about 40 people from me bounced back from a handful of people and KRR is one of them. I notice that a few others said that their mails to KRR are bouncing. If someone has been successful in communicating with im, would they inform him of this group. I just came to know about a new address (at IBM) for Ananda Kishore. I will inform him. Is there a general problem with AT&T people? I mean, not with the people, but communicating with them! Mails to Yashodhar Punati, and Ravi Pattisam both at AT&T in Allentown bounced back. Any scoop from AT&T-er Juvvadi? I see, no make it I know, that a handful of people in this group have difficulty with reading telugu stuff in RIT. Would someone (again, Juvvadi) write a very short note on RIT-scheme? I did this sometime ago, but apparently that has not been motivating enough. It is almost a parallel to the wRITer's block syndrome. I wrote in SCIT on and off, as occasion demanded, on chandassu. Recently I have had requests on that matter. Is this a matter of general interest? Otherwise I will just answer those two people off-group. Funny, chandas is looked at as some 'sakeLLu', which suffocate people and thought. In his preface to geeta gOvinda kAvyamu, dASarathi quotes a SlOka from nATya SAstra, which says: chanda heenO na Sabdanti, na chandah Sabda varjitah meaning, there is no word that doesn't have chandas, and there is no chandas without words! (substitute 'sound' for word) Ramakrishna From murty@engin.umich.edu Tue Oct 31 00:17:08 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 00:17:06 -0600; AA22404 Received: from azure.engin.umich.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 00:17:04 -0600 Received: (murty@localhost) by azure.engin.umich.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) id BAA20943; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 01:17:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 01:17:02 -0500 (EST) From: Katta G Murty To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Incorporating foreign words Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some time ago there was discussion on this topic. I remember hearing a long time ago that the word "bUchi" came into Telugu from the last name of a Portugese (?) warrior Debucchi. Apparently he defeated a Telugu king very badly. The king's army was routed so badly that ever since that day Telugu mothers frighten noisy (or crying) kids by warning bUchi va-stu-nnA-du jA-gra-tta! Can anyone enlighten me about the whole story, who that king was, etc. I am meeting a Portugese joint researcher soon, I would like to relate this story to him. Also, another historical query. We have the Telugu word bu-da-ta-kE-chu-lu for the Portugese. I do not know of corresponding Telugized words for the british and french. Why is that? Is it because the Portugese came into Andhra long before the british and the French? For that matter the Greeks (through Alexander) were perhaps the first large group of europeans to come at a time into India. There is no Telugized word for Greeks either. Maybe they did not come that far south. Thank you for your attention. Katta Murty. From narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Tue Oct 31 06:17:42 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 06:17:40 -0600; AA25904 Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 06:17:38 -0600 Received: from [144.118.12.138] (spray1.coe.drexel.edu [144.118.12.138]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA18503 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 07:15:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 07:15:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199510311215.HAA18503@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Nasy Sankagiri) Subject: Re: Incorporating foreign words >Also, another historical query. We have the Telugu word >bu-da-ta-kE-chu-lu for the Portugese. I do not know of >corresponding Telugized words for the british and french. >Why is that? Is it because the Portugese came into Andhra >long before the british and the French? I think that is true. However, the French are called 'paraasulu'. I think the British entered the fray for colonies the last. I am not aware of any 'nickname' for them. >For that matter >the Greeks (through Alexander) were perhaps the first large >group of europeans to come at a time into India. There is no Telugized >word for Greeks either. Maybe they did not come that far south. >Thank you for your attention. >Katta Murty. The Greeks were called 'yavanulu' in Sanskrit. The same word was copied into telugu. Regards Nasy From vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Oct 31 06:27:31 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 06:27:28 -0600; AA25922 Received: from students.wisc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 06:27:27 -0600 Received: from [144.92.180.112] by audumla.students.wisc.edu; id GAA48853; 8.6.9W/42; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 06:27:23 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 19:29:30 -1200 To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu (Velcheru Narayana Rao) Subject: Re: Incorporating foreign words Katta Murty wrote: >I remember hearing a long time ago that the word "bUchi" came >into Telugu from the last name of a Portugese (?) warrior >Debucchi. Yes, I heard that too. But the word bUchi ia much older word meaning a piSaca,Telugu deyyam, spirit. Siva is often descrbed as bUchula-rEDu. Connection with the French genereal is scholalry-folk etymology. It does not have seem to have any basis. But I would check Dravidain Etymological Dictionary. Ed. T. Burrow and M. B. Emeneau, Oxford, 1984. Incidentally, the Telugu king the French (not Portugese) general (called bUsI in Telugu) defeated was the Velama king of Bobbili, Rangarao, The battle was fought in 1757. The French sided with the Vijayanagar against Bobbili in that battle. You may still find the heroic story of Bobbili sung as an epic by folk singers. I have several recordings of this popular folk epic. There was even a movie, bobbili yuddham, made of this story. >corresponding Telugized words for the british and french. French were called Farangulu, as were any foreigners and there were several words for the English, but tella doralu replaced all of them. Greeks were called yavanas in Sanskrit texts as you probably know. No Telugu word, perhaps not so much because they did not come that far south, but Telugu is not a language that goes that far back. VNR From nparinand@cas.org Tue Oct 31 08:46:51 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 08:46:48 -0600; AA27750 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 08:46:46 -0600 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:46:41 EST From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pa'ranandi lakshmii narasimham)) Message-Id: <9510310946.AA8520@cas.org> Subject: KAURAVA NAMES - ANDHRA MEN To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu namaska'ramulu! Chinnu (my younger son) and I were talking about Kaurava's and suddenly the question came that if Andhras sided with the kaurava's why don't they (currently atleast) name their boys after them (kaurava's). I remeber the practice of naming boys after the kaurava's in Kalingapatnam (Kalingapatam - the forgotten empire on which Sri Gidugu Ramamoorthy ga'ru and Sri Paranandi Jagannadha Swami ga'ru (my grandfather) did research) and Andhra - Orissa border areas. e.g. duryOdhan jena (jenna') : This jena (jenna') is the last name. They are descendents of kaLimga's (called ka'Limgulu). They speak both Oriya and Telugu very well. They follow both customs and traditions. In reality they are fair and very good looking people. They are spread throughout the Northeastern Andhra (Srikakulam, Srii Mukhalingam, Parlakimedi, Berhampur areas). Interestingly their telugu is different a bit from my telugu (Sriika'kulam - Ganjam - Visakha telugu). I did not make up the above name - duryOdhan jena. It is real. In fact, I heard that some of the 100 kaurava' names have had been in use in that area. Does anyone know such usage in any other parts of Andhra or adjacent areas (other than Andhra - Orissa borders)? ---pa'lana ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ._~Y~_; IT IS CHEMISTRY ! NEITHER HISTORY NOR MYSTERY!!! ' (* *) ^--\-/--^ @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+--------- PALANA `__' {===} `__' nlp55@cas.org /_____\ CHEMICAL ABSTRACTS SERVICE || || AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY _________N_|_|_P_________________________________________________________ From cjampala@dayton.net Tue Oct 31 09:44:22 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:44:19 -0600; AA28206 Received: from orac.dayton.net by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:44:17 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net by dayton.net with SMTP id AA30202 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:44:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:44:13 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Incorporating foreign words In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Velcheru Narayana Rao wrote: > Incidentally, the Telugu king the French (not Portugese) general (called > bUsI in Telugu) defeated was the Velama king of Bobbili, Rangarao, The > battle was fought in 1757. The French sided with the Vijayanagar against > Bobbili in that battle. You may still find the heroic story of Bobbili sung > as an epic by folk singers. I have several recordings of this popular folk > epic. There was even a movie, bobbili yuddham, made of this story. > There was also a more recent movie called taanDra paapaaraayuDu. > > >corresponding Telugized words for the british and french. > > French were called Farangulu, as were any foreigners and there were several > words for the English, but tella doralu replaced all of them. Greeks were > called yavanas in Sanskrit texts as you probably know. No Telugu word, > perhaps not so much because they did not come that far south, but Telugu is > not a language that goes that far back. > 'paraasu' was another word for French, I believe. I remember seeing the word used in the bobbiliyuddham drama and ballads. farangee, farangulu seemed to be used for all foreigners. I hear this word often in Hindi movies. 'Palaka' had an interesting post in SCIT a few weeks ago about the etymology for the word 'yavana', which apparently refers to the Ionian Greeks. Regards. --- V. Chowdary Jampala From chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 31 09:47:28 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:47:25 -0600; AA28243 Received: from ame.gsfc.nasa.gov by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:47:24 -0600 Received: by ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (940816.SGI.8.6.9/1.35) id KAA04090; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:47:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:47:23 -0500 From: chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (Kumar Chunduru) Message-Id: <199510311547.KAA04090@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov> Apparently-To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Palana garu writes: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- namaska'ramulu! Chinnu (my younger son) and I were talking about Kaurava's and suddenly the question came that if Andhras sided with the kaurava's why don't they (currently atleast) name their boys after them (kaurava's). I remeber the practice of naming boys after the kaurava's in Kalingapatnam (Kalingapatam - the forgotten empire on which Sri Gidugu Ramamoorthy ga'ru and Sri Paranandi Jagannadha Swami ga'ru (my grandfather) did research) and Andhra - Orissa border areas. e.g. duryOdhan jena (jenna') : This jena (jenna') is the last name. They are descendents of kaLimga's (called ka'Limgulu). They speak both Oriya and Telugu very well. They follow both customs and traditions. In reality they are fair and very good looking people. They are spread throughout the Northeastern Andhra (Srikakulam, Srii Mukhalingam, Parlakimedi, Berhampur areas). Interestingly their telugu is different a bit from my telugu (Sriika'kulam - Ganjam - Visakha telugu). I did not make up the above name - duryOdhan jena. It is real. In fact, I heard that some of the 100 kaurava' names have had been in use in that area. Does anyone know such usage in any other parts of Andhra or adjacent areas (other than Andhra - Orissa borders)? ---pa'lana ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ._~Y~_; IT IS CHEMISTRY ! NEITHER HISTORY NOR MYSTERY!!! ' (* *) ^--\-/--^ @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+--------- PALANA `__' {===} `__' nlp55@cas.org /_____\ CHEMICAL ABSTRACTS SERVICE || || AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY _________N_|_|_P_________________________________________________________ Dear palana Garu: It is very interesting to know about the kaurava's names. I had a friend from orrisa state with a last name jena and he tells he was a decendent of a raja family. Kumar Chunduru From suresh@austin.ibm.com Tue Oct 31 09:53:47 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:53:44 -0600; AA28314 Received: from netmail.austin.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:53:41 -0600 Received: from varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (varadagudi.austin.ibm.com [129.35.18.217]) by netmail.austin.ibm.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA120789 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:53:33 -0600 Received: by varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for telusa@cs.wisc.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA13634; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:53:27 -0600 From: suresh@austin.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) Message-Id: <9510311553.AA13634@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Onomaetopoeic words in Telugu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:53:26 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Velcheru Narayana Rao" at Oct 30, 95 07:29:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 673 Bapa Rao gaaru spoke about some onomaetopoeic words like taaraa zuvva, sura-sura batti and kaakara-puvvu-vatti. I thought I knew a lot more words based on onomatopoeia in telugu, but gosh, am not able to recollect many words, right now. Here are the few that I can quickly think of. kora kora choochu kasa kasa namulu gora gora gunju (probably only in our telangANA dists.) What about kaaki ? Is there any known controversy on whether sanskrit kaakam is derived from dravidian kaaki, kaagi or vice versa? The praakrit bhekam must also be onomatopoeic, for the beka beka sound that frog makes. Any other additions (as I said, there are tons) ? Regards, Suresh. From vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Oct 31 10:24:40 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:24:38 -0600; AA28895 Received: from students.wisc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:24:37 -0600 Received: from [144.92.180.112] by audumla.students.wisc.edu; id KAA21205; 8.6.9W/42; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:24:33 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 23:26:41 -1200 To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu (Velcheru Narayana Rao) Subject: Re: KAURAVA NAMES - ANDHRA MEN Dear palana: I know several KAlingas, but none with Kaurava names. I wonder if the the other Kaurava names, especially women's names like Gandhari were ever used. VNR From suresh@austin.ibm.com Tue Oct 31 10:47:36 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:47:34 -0600; AA29313 Received: from netmail1.austin.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:47:32 -0600 Received: from varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (varadagudi.austin.ibm.com [129.35.18.217]) by netmail1.austin.ibm.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA59017 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:47:31 -0600 Received: by varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for telusa@cs.wisc.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA16342; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:47:29 -0600 From: suresh@austin.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) Message-Id: <9510311647.AA16342@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Onomaetopoeic words in Telugu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:47:29 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9510311553.AA13634@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> from "Suresh Kolichala" at Oct 31, 95 09:53:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 611 I wrote: > Bapa Rao gaaru spoke about some onomaetopoeic words like taaraa zuvva, > sura-sura batti and kaakara-puvvu-vatti. I thought I knew a lot more > words based on onomatopoeia in telugu, but gosh, am not able to recollect > many words, right now. Here are the few that I can quickly think > of. > > kora kora choochu > kasa kasa namulu > gora gora gunju (probably only in our telangANA dists.) Sorry, kora kora choochu doesn't have any sound associated with it, right ? Okay, here are couple of additions to above list of verbal-phrases(?) : gaDa gaDa traagu gaja gaja vaNuku Regards, Suresh. From nparinand@cas.org Tue Oct 31 10:51:38 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:51:36 -0600; AA29383 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:51:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 11:51:24 EST From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (x2160, 3402)) Message-Id: <9510311151.AA10192@cas.org> Subject: Jena - The Raja Family : Chunduru's Comments To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu, chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov Dear Kumar ga'ru: Yes! These Jena's claim that they are descendents of Kshatriya's - in fact they have that dynamism - they are aggressive. Most of them have those leadership qualities of the ra'ja's. They side with either Oriyas or Telugus. A teacher of mine used to call them "gabbila'lu" (sorry to bring that here). I asked that teacher why he called them "gabbila'lu". Then he narrated the story and the story goes like this: Long long ago there was a war between the birds and mammals. In this battle, the mammals won. Then the bats joined the mammals saying that they belong to that group. After some time, another war between the mammals and birds (aves) broke out. This time, the aves won. Then the bats joined the birds claiming that they can fly and so they belong to the avian community. Surprisingly, in neither wars the bats participated. This duryOdhana jena character I brought out is real. This gentleman was the sarpanch of a village and later contested for the legislative assembly. He used to speak fantastic Telugu and Oriya languages. I never bothered to find out to which community he belonged. In fact, his sons were my classmates. I asked one of his boys why his dad was named after duryOdhana. Then he told me that his ancestors faught in the Mahabharata war. A friend of mine, Mr. Ippili Bhaskararao, overheard that and loudly said "aitE mEmu ja'grattaga' umDa'lira' mii daggara." He got very upset. Any way - ra'ma'yaNamlO piDakala vETa la' ii kadhOkaTi. --pa'lana ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ._~Y~_; ' (* *) ^--\-/--^ @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+--------- PALANA `__' {===} `__' nlp55@cas.org /_____\ CHEMICAL ABSTRACTS SERVICE || || AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY _________N_|_|_P_________________________________________________________ From srinivas@eng.umd.edu Tue Oct 31 10:58:06 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:58:03 -0600; AA29503 Received: from chemserv.umd.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:58:00 -0600 Received: from espresso.eng.umd.edu (espresso.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.13]) by chemserv.umd.edu (8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28448 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:57:58 -0500 (EST) From: Nagulapalli Srinivas Received: (srinivas@localhost) by espresso.eng.umd.edu (8.7/8.6.4) id LAA04600 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:57:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:57:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199510311657.LAA04600@espresso.eng.umd.edu> To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Onomaetopoeic words in Telugu > Bapa Rao gaaru spoke about some onomaetopoeic words like taaraa zuvva, > sura-sura batti and kaakara-puvvu-vatti. I thought I knew a lot more > words based on onomatopoeia in telugu, but gosh, am not able to recollect > many words, right now. Here are the few that I can quickly think > of. > And Suresh gaaru added the following onomaetopoeic words. Why shouldn't there be a simpler word with more "onomaetopoeic" spelling for this bombastic word "onomaetopoeic" !!?? :-) > kora kora choochu > kasa kasa namulu > gora gora gunju (probably only in our telangANA dists.) I can think of these: busalu koTTu (paamu) bira bira povaDam thaTaaluna paDaDam vela vela povaDam naka naka laaDaDam(aakaliki!:-) ) thaha thaha laaDaDam (manasulo) mera mera (may be only in TelangANA dists.) Bhagguna manDaDam repa repa laaDaDam (gaaliki) BhOruna EdvaDaDam! phakkuna navvaDaDam gantalu GhallumanaDam bombu pellu mani pelchaDam kOpamtho kutha kutha laaDaDam! With regards -Srinivas From nparinand@cas.org Tue Oct 31 11:16:58 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 11:16:56 -0600; AA29722 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 11:16:54 -0600 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 12:16:51 EST From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pa'ranandi lakshmii narasimham)) Message-Id: <9510311216.AA10327@cas.org> Subject: KAURAVA NAMES - ANDHRA MEN - Dr. Naryanarao's Comments To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Dear Sri Narayanarao ga'ru: Yes! Again the women's name like you suggested, "ga'mdha'ri" (gAmdhAri) are prevalent in Andhra-Orissa border areas. I don't know how much they are use in now. I was told that the kAlinga's used to use those kaurava men names. May be the practice faded out with progression of time. May be that was made up by someone else - who knows. I have my grandfather's works on the Kalinga Empire (the title: kaLimgaptnam - the forgotten empire with corrections by his teacher Sri Gidugu Rammoorthy ga'ru) and other notes. I could not find any reference to the Kaurava names. If I correctly recollect the kaurava women names, like you suggested, ga'mdha'ri, was one popular one I used to hear as one of the dAsii names in Maharaja Krishnachandra Gajapati Samsthanam of Parlakimedi. On the North Side of the palace the Oriyas used to live and on the South Side of the palace the Telugus used to live. One of the streets on the North Side of the palace is called the koTiko sa'hi (in Oriya and in Telugu : kaTika veedhi means those who immigrated from Cuttack area lived there - especially the dAsii families occupied that street adjacent to the palace). The females had unusual names and this ga'mdha'ri was one among them. Any way, the Telugu culture (for that matter the Oriya culture) around my native place is unique. The one always attracts me the Ganjam telugu as I grew up with it. regards --pa'lana (all lower case not capitals as Pillalamarri questioned) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ._~Y~_; MORE THAN 11 MILLION CHEMICALS KNOWN SO FAR TO MANKIND. ' (* *) ^--\-/--^ @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+--------- PALANA `__' {===} `__' nlp55@cas.org /_____\ CHEMICAL ABSTRACTS SERVICE || || AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY _________N_|_|_P_______________________________________________________________ From kamala@npac.syr.edu Tue Oct 31 12:08:23 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 12:08:20 -0600; AA00332 Received: from spica-gw.npac.syr.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 12:08:17 -0600 Received: from achernar.npac.syr.edu by spica.npac.syr.edu (4.1/I-1.98K) id AA18516; Tue, 31 Oct 95 13:08:03 EST Received: by achernar.npac.syr.edu (4.1/N-0.12) id AA18794; Tue, 31 Oct 95 13:07:47 EST Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:07:44 -0500 (EST) From: Kamala Anupindi Subject: Re: Onomaetopoeic words in Telugu (fwd) To: Telusa Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, Suresh Kolichala wrote: > Okay, here are couple of additions to above list of verbal-phrases(?) : > > gaDa gaDa traagu > gaja gaja vaNuku > > Regards, > Suresh. > I'm not sure if i followed the discussion correctly, but how about: gala gala pArE gOdAvari, bira birA sAgE krishNamma ani vinnanu: where do these fit in? kiTa kiTa : talupulu, janAlU etc ... meTa meTalAdindi : yenDa chaka chaka : pani cheyyaDamu rava ravalADE ratnAlu, mila mila merupu and taLa taLa telupu (dunno if this is right, i just rememeber the Super Rin ad and typed it :-)) sound good, even though there is no *sound* attached to them !! kamala From dsr@VNET.IBM.COM Tue Oct 31 12:21:03 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 12:21:00 -0600; AA00411 Received: from vnet.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 12:20:57 -0600 Received: from FISHKILL by VNET.IBM.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1665; Tue, 31 Oct 95 13:20:51 EST Received: by FISHKILL (XAGENTA 4.0) id 0167; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:20:51 -0500 Received: by sprite.pok.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24507; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:20:49 -0500 Message-Id: <9510311820.AA24507@sprite.pok.ibm.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:47:23 EST.) <199510311547.KAA04090@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 13:20:48 -0500 From: "D. Sreenivasa Rao" > > Palana garu writes: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > namaska'ramulu! > > Chinnu (my younger son) and I were talking about Kaurava's and > suddenly the question came that if Andhras sided with the kaurava's > why don't they (currently atleast) name their boys after them > (kaurava's). > Maybe it is just that those names have been stigmatized for so long because of the wide-spread beliefs about the acts of those people. Don't you think a parent would think twice before naming his/her child O.J. Simpson, despite the fact that there is no unanimity of opinion about his actions? As Dr. Narayana Rao garu pointed out, what is more surprising is the fact that no one seems to use names like Gandhari too, despite her character and actions being mostly recognized as good.... --sreenivas-- dsr@vnet.ibm.com From suresh@austin.ibm.com Tue Oct 31 12:25:54 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 12:25:50 -0600; AA00521 Received: from netmail1.austin.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 12:25:45 -0600 Received: from varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (varadagudi.austin.ibm.com [129.35.18.217]) by netmail1.austin.ibm.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA45010 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:25:45 -0600 Received: by varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-client-2.6) for telusa@cs.wisc.edu at austin.ibm.com; id AA13200; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:25:42 -0600 From: suresh@austin.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) Message-Id: <9510311825.AA13200@varadaguDi.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Onomaetopoeic words in Telugu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:25:42 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199510311657.LAA04600@espresso.eng.umd.edu> from "Nagulapalli Srinivas" at Oct 31, 95 11:57:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 484 Thanks for the additions to my examples. Now, I see that most of the words representing sounds must be onoma.. (yes, I share Srinivas's wonder as to why onomaetopoeic is onomaetopoeic and why palindromic is palindromic:-)) Also, it would be interesting to see if any one could add more words like kaaki, bhEkam which do not directly represent any sounds, but the etymology of these words can be traced to the vocal immitation of the sounds related to them. Regards, Suresh. From chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 31 13:02:28 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 13:02:26 -0600; AA01292 Received: from ame.gsfc.nasa.gov by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 13:02:24 -0600 Received: by ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (940816.SGI.8.6.9/1.35) id OAA11185; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 14:02:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 14:02:21 -0500 From: chunduru@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov (Kumar Chunduru) Message-Id: <199510311902.OAA11185@ame.gsfc.nasa.gov> Apparently-To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu NamasKaram'lu It is very interesting to know that how the FOREIGN words has made entry into TELUGU, perhaps into other indian languages. We (especially, I) seems to be using very frequently without even knowing the origin (may be as long as the message gets across it is fine). We can conclude that these words came from the invaders. In telangana area the telugu is mixed with high content of URDU and people use them very freely and many telugu familes whom i know speak URDU at home. It is very interesting to know that GERMAN has lot sanskrit words, esp LUFTHANSA . The underlined word is borrowed from sanskrit. ^^^^^^ Does anyone has any clue how these words made entry in german language. Kumar Chunduru From srinivas@eng.umd.edu Tue Oct 31 14:32:39 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 14:32:36 -0600; AA02878 Received: from bacchus.eng.umd.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 14:32:34 -0600 Received: from cappuccino.eng.umd.edu (cappuccino.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.14]) by bacchus.eng.umd.edu (8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04825 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 15:32:33 -0500 (EST) From: Nagulapalli Srinivas Received: (srinivas@localhost) by cappuccino.eng.umd.edu (8.7/8.6.4) id PAA08620 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 15:32:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 15:32:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199510312032.PAA08620@cappuccino.eng.umd.edu> To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Foreign words into Telugu - one humorous episode! Reading the foreign words getting into Telugu, I recall an incident that took place atleast 5 years ago. I was travelling in a APSRTC bus in Bolarum, near Secunderabad, when one person who was dressed in khadi white- Gandhian style, aboarded the bus. Later some one told that he was a "successful LOSER" in all the Municipal Elections held for the last 2 decades or so!!:-) Anyway some one asked if he again filed his Nomination for the coming elections. He said he filed his "naam- nishaan" yesterday,and when someone corrected saying it is called "Nomination" and not "naam-nishaan", he exhorted vehemently that: "It is only "naam-nishaan"- you put your naam= (Name) and also "nishaan"(Symbol) And he theorized that the British had difficulty in pronouncing it as naam-nishaan and hence it became "Nomination"!!!!:-) I could never forget his audacity and impudence in deriving etmylogy of words with scholarly vehemence !!!:-) With regards -Srinivas From tadepall@eecis.udel.edu Tue Oct 31 17:33:59 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 17:33:57 -0600; AA05511 Received: from louie.udel.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 31 Oct 95 17:33:55 -0600 Received: from snow-white.ee.udel.edu by louie.udel.edu id aa06632; 31 Oct 95 18:30 EST Received: from stimpy.eecis.udel.edu by snow-white.ee.udel.edu id aa15363; 31 Oct 95 18:30 EST From: Hari Krishna Tadepalli Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 18:30:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: unsubscribe Message-Id: <9510312330.aa01468@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu>