From sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil Mon Feb 24 07:19:56 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA16636 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:19:51 -0600 Received: from anvil.nrl.navy.mil (anvil.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.184.16]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA04923 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:19:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from [132.250.185.112] (k-sadananda.nrl.navy.mil) by anvil.nrl.navy.mil (4.1/4.7) id AA00411; Mon, 24 Feb 97 08:17:37 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:19:48 -0500 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu From: sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil (sadananda) Subject: Different interpretations Sri Vari's posting on Vemana poem - cheppu ... remained me of the sumati shatakam poem - aDigina jiitam bivvani miDimElupu doranu golichi miDugutakanTen vaDigala yeddala gaTTuka? maDidunnuchu bratuka vachhu madilO sumatii? Not sure of the correctness of the second half. The author's intended meaning of the first line - aDigni jiitam bivvani - Does the author mean - 1. aDiginaanuu jiitamu ivvani or 2. aDiginanta jiitamu ivvani both may be valid interpretations - It all depends on the availability of alternatives - Vadigala yeddulu and maDi and the skill to do that job. Hari Om! Sadananda From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Mon Feb 24 08:29:23 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA16928 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:29:16 -0600 Received: from hel4.arl.mil (hel4.arl.mil [128.63.37.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA05835 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:29:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97 9:29:48 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: Re: Different interpretations Organization: Message-ID: <9702240929.aa13709@HEL4.ARL.MIL> This question of "aDiginA kUDA", or "aDiginanta" has been perplexing me for some time. I think Kalasapudi Srinivasa Rao raised this question a few months ago, perhaps in a personal communication. As sadAnanda says, it all depends on the availability of alternatives, which most of us don't seem to have. Nowadays I hear a radio commercial which goes like: A: Boss, how about giving me a raise? B: How about if I let you keep your job, and pay you the same? A: That would work. So, it is not that everyone has a pair of "fast" oxen in the backyard, and a title to a piece of land. Now. Perhaps then, (quick, what is the relevant time period, of baddena?) these things were plentiful. Especially if you were willing to till some "banjaru" bhoomulu, and were successful in "bangAram panDincaTam". Finally, it is "maDidunnuchu bratuka vachhu mahilO sumatee!". Not madilO! Except, this version gives it a "touch of reality", in that baddena is saying that the alternative exists only in your "mind"! He is then disabusing the poor guy of his mid-day dreams. Ramakrishna From varigond@cems.umn.edu Mon Feb 24 09:16:24 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA18246 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:16:19 -0600 Received: from rainy.cems.umn.edu (rainy.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06941 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:16:18 -0600 (CST) Received: by rainy.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA233107376; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:16:16 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:16:16 -0600 Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:16:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199702241516.AA233107376@rainy.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Different interpretations To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:16:16 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9702240929.aa13709@HEL4.ARL.MIL> from "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" at Feb 24, 97 09:29:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > > This question of "aDiginA kUDA", or "aDiginanta" has been perplexing > me for some time. I think Kalasapudi Srinivasa Rao raised this > question a few months ago, perhaps in a personal communication. Since we know that it's a 'subhaashitam', interpreting it as 'aDiginanta' seems to differ from the poet's original intention. The word used by the poet 'aDigina' is undoutedly, ambiguous. To make the intention clear, how about reading it as "aDugaga jItam biyyani" (We have no right to change the original but for the purpose of interpretation ....) -vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From mahesh@expert.cc.purdue.edu Mon Feb 24 14:13:34 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA25562 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:13:29 -0600 Received: from expert.cc.purdue.edu (expert.cc.purdue.edu [128.210.10.11]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA14668 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:13:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (from mahesh@localhost) by expert.cc.purdue.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) id PAA03311 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:13:20 -0500 (EST) From: Mahesh Panchagnula Message-Id: <199702242013.PAA03311@expert.cc.purdue.edu> Subject: Exception to gaNa vibhajana To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:13:19 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Namaskaaram I am reminded of a poem in PushpavilApam by Jandhyala Papayyasastri. And on a closer look, the gaNa vibhajana is not clear to me. U I | U I I |U I U | U I| U I buddhadEvuni bhUmilO puTTinAvu I I I|I U U I | U U I| U I | U I sahajamaguprEma nIlOna chachchenEmi The part that is not clear to me is the second gaNa on the second line: the letter 'gu' in that gaNa has to be a guruvu by virtue of its being in front of 'prE'? Is this poetic liberty or is there an exception that allows such construction? I think it would be nice if we could discuss some such exceptions in general with examples. Thanks mahesh From srini@usiva.com Mon Feb 24 14:42:44 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA26140 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:42:39 -0600 Received: from gauntlet.usiva.com (uucp@gauntlet-all.usiva.com [206.67.217.2]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15388 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:42:38 -0600 (CST) Received: by gauntlet.usiva.com; id PAA02331; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:42:34 -0500 Received: from unknown(198.5.168.1) by gauntlet.usiva.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma002320; Mon, 24 Feb 97 15:42:24 -0500 Received: by usinet.usiva.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08273; Mon, 24 Feb 97 15:35:12 EST Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97 15:35:12 EST From: srini@usiva.com (Srini) Message-Id: <9702242035.AA08273@usinet.usiva.com> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Nanduri Subbarao in his own words on Yenki pATalu Sri Ari Sitaramayya wrote: > Some times when the author is writing a beautiful piece of poetry with an > unambiguous aim, his biases creep in unintentionally. Should those be > ignored? > > For example: > > kollAyi gaTTitE nEmI > mA gAndhi > kOmaTai puTTitE nEmI > > The poet is praising Gandhi of course. > He is also saying that Gandhi rose above his genetics. > As a Komati, should I be thrilled about this piece? I agree poet is saying that Gandhiji rose above his caste. But I am not sure if that is an insult to that caste itself. Infact I thought members of that caste should feel proud of Gandhiji born with similar social heritage, achieving so much with his non-violence, truth and integrity that he stands tall among all men of the world for many generations to come. I am proud he is Indian. Since you yourself are convinced about the genuineness of the poet's intention, I do not think it is a good idea to drop such pieces of inspiring poetry. I read the poem in my childhood and even now it inspires me and never felt that it was or has anything to do about putting down Gandhiji's caste. I think language or poetry is just an outer expression for inner feelings and thoughts. And being hammered with Electronics and Computer Engg. I also have some "bias", so forgive me please! I think human feelings are "analog" in nature and not "digital"! Also no matter what language or poetical expressions we use,all are discretised tokens and it is impossible to completely capture the magnitude of the breadth and depth of the spectrum of human thoughts, feelings and experiences in terms of the non-analog tokens of words or sounds. That itself introduces some "quantization noise" or error! That is why we hear people saying "dont read literally, but understand the spirit of it", because it is extremely difficult and sometimes impossible to express _COMPLETELY_ certain human experiences in terms of lifeless, state and pale tokens of words! And to the extent the author can clearly communicate the spirit, I think to that extent he succeeded in his endeavor. Well, you know how much I "succeeded" now!:-) Besides, if we start reading literally, we lose all the beauty, charm and grace of many expressions that bring liveliness to the language. Some funny or not so funny instances I recall are: 1. Women feeling they are being put down whenever someone uses "mankind" word! 2. Men feeling they are treated "unfairly" when women are described as "fairer sex"! 3. Myself and my friends feel strange whenever they call us "aliens" in all immigration forms as if we are from some StarTrek planet! > I say, Amen! We can't continue to insult people and claim that we are > above the biases. It is the spirit that is more important than the letters. It is easier to determine if one "insulted" other people, than to determine if there is "bias". Who can proclaim that they have absolutely no bias whatsoever? Yet, we have power to gracefully express without "insulting". Isn't it? With best regards -Srinivas Nagulapalli From RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV Mon Feb 24 14:56:23 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA26344 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:56:18 -0600 Received: from FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV (fcrfv1.NCIFCRF.GOV [129.43.51.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15747 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:56:12 -0600 (CST) From: RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:58:38 -0500 To: telusa@CS.WISC.edu Message-Id: <970224155838.20426a9d@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> Subject: RE: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Hi, In sahajamagu prEma nIlOna chachchenEmi, gu IS a laghuvu. When we speak out the line, we do not put emphasis on gu. We say: sahajamagu prEma. After the word sahajamagu, there is a pause. In such a case, gu is not a guruvu. On the other hand, in KrishnaprEma, there is an emphasis on shNa and hence it is a guruvu. I hope this is helpful. Regards! - J. K. Mohana Rao. From ratnakar@cae.wisc.edu Mon Feb 24 15:01:14 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA26431 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:01:09 -0600 Received: from cae.wisc.edu (serv0.cae.wisc.edu [144.92.240.11]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15832 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:01:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from hp-60.cae.wisc.edu (hp-60.cae.wisc.edu [144.92.240.70]) by cae.wisc.edu (CAE sendmail 1.1/CAE1.1) with ESMTP id PAA28452 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:01:07 -0600 (CST) From: Ratnakar Sonthi Received: (from ratnakar@localhost) by hp-60.cae.wisc.edu (CAE sendmail 1.2/CAE1.1) id PAA21950 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:01:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702242101.PAA21950@hp-60.cae.wisc.edu> Subject: LOTUS: An Award for Excellence in Creative Computing To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:01:07 CST x-HPVue$Revision: 1.8 $ MIME-Version: 1.0 x-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.18] Press Release: February 7, 1997 LOTUS: An Award for Excellence in Creative Computing Lotus, the Hindu icon standing for the creative power in the Universe, the source from which the creator Brahma Himself emerged, the seat of Saraswathi - the goddess of wisdom, is the name chosen for an award for Excellence in Creative Computing. This (yearly) award is given to youth from India living in the North American Continent. Its purpose is to encourage children and youth to experiment with computers and to promote, recognize and honor their talent in the creative application(s) of computers. The Lotus Award is organized and administered by a group of professors and professionals in computing, electrical engineering and creative arts. Youth 18 years or younger are invited to participate in a contest that results in the naming of the "Top 20" entries who, in turn, will compete in a face to face final round on July 3, 1997. For this year, our plans are to conduct the final round of the competition in conjunction with the Telugu Association of North America (TANA) Conference to be held in Anaheim during July 3-6, 1997. A distinguished panel of judges will pick the Grand Prize winner and five Honorable Mention citations. This year, the Lotus Award winner will receive an Apple Multimedia Computer System, a software bundle and a citation. Honorable Mentions will receive citations. Depending on the level of participation and quality of entries, other prizes may be instituted. Contestants should submit an Entry Form and a $30 non-refundable Entry Fee by April 1, 1997. Final projects are due by May 1, 1997. For full contest rules, entry form and further information, please see: http://www-ksl.stanford.edu/people/vemuri/lotus/ or, send a e-mail request to lotus@cs.stanford.edu or, send a self-addressed stamped envelope to: Prof. V. Rao Vemuri Department of Applied Science P. O. Box 808, L-794 University of California, Davis Livermore, CA 94550 From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Mon Feb 24 15:06:39 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA26488 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:06:15 -0600 Received: from hel4.arl.mil (hel4.arl.mil [128.63.37.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA15959 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:06:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97 16:06:43 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Organization: Message-ID: <9702241606.aa29600@HEL4.ARL.MIL> This topic was discussed ad infinitum in SCIT, and perhaps a little bit in telusA. Trouble is one has to back a few years to find the discussion.And the posts haven't been neatly arranged for easy search. One of these days ........ The short answer to the question is that there is a pause between the words "sahajamagu", and "prEma", and consequently the "connection" between the syllables "gu" & "prE" is lost. Thus the compound consonant syllable "prE" no longer influences the previous syllable "gu". This should be considered neither an exception, nor poetic liberty. In the final analysis, whether a syllable is "scanned" (a latin prosodical term) as a guruvu or laghuvu depends on the way it is enunciated; not on an antique rule propounded by some orthodox grammarians. The same holds in the line gunDe lOnunDi sUdulu grucci grucci ^ ^ Neither of those syllables in the "previous words" become guruvus. On the other hand, when the two words are combined with a sandhi, then of course the influence comes into play. Such as in, dhara kharvATu DokanDu sUrya kara santapta pradhAnAnguDai ^ The indicated syllable becomes a guruvu, because of the sandhi between the words. No matter how it is written with a space between, for readability. Another example of the first kind: Ayuvu galgu nAlgu gaDiyal kani pencina teeva talli jA- teeyata diddi teertumu, tadeeya karammula lOna swEcchamai ^ Ramakrishna From varigond@hp1.cems.umn.edu Mon Feb 24 15:20:23 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA26694 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:20:15 -0600 Received: from hp1.cems.umn.edu (hp1.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.8]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA16302 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:20:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702242120.PAA16302@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: by hp1.cems.umn.edu (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA047199213; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:20:14 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:20:13 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199702242013.PAA03311@expert.cc.purdue.edu> from "Mahesh Panchagnula" at Feb 24, 97 03:13:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text hi! > I I I|I U U I | U U I| U I | U I > sahajamaguprEma nIlOna chachchenEmi > the letter 'gu' in that gaNa has to be a guruvu by virtue of its being > in front of 'prE'? > > Is this poetic liberty or is there an exception that allows such > construction? > There is an exception. That rule is explained below. Normally, the letter before a compound letter is guruvu. But, when the compound letter starts a new word (or word in a sandhi), you have the freedom to take the preceding letter as laghuvu if necessary, especially is the compound letter has 'rEphamu (ra-vattu)'. Use of this exception with other compounds is less common. Thus, cha in chakri is guruvu and can't be taken as laghuvu because it's the same word. But in 'sahajamagu prEma', 'prE' starts a new word so 'gu' can be taken as guruvu or laghuvu to suit the poem's chandas. Any *authentic* corrections are welcome. -vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From juvvadi@horizoncomp.com Mon Feb 24 15:40:59 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA27096 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:40:54 -0600 Received: from cygnus.horizoncomp.com (juvvadi@cygnus.horizoncomp.com [204.91.181.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA16815 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:40:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (juvvadi@localhost) by cygnus.horizoncomp.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA30929 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:35:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:35:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Ramana R. Juvvadi" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Exception to gaNa vibhajana In-Reply-To: <970224155838.20426a9d@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV wrote: > Hi, In > > sahajamagu prEma nIlOna chachchenEmi, > > gu IS a laghuvu. When we speak out the line, we do not put emphasis on gu. > We say: sahajamagu prEma. After the word sahajamagu, there is a pause. In > such a case, gu is not a guruvu. On the other hand, in KrishnaprEma, there is > an emphasis on shNa and hence it is a guruvu. I hope this is helpful. > Regards! - J. K. Mohana Rao. Just to add another point. An aksharam is a guruvu if at least one of the conditions is satisfied 1. The gunintam is long i.e. one A,I,U,E,ai,O,ou,am 2. The next aksharam is a samyuktAksharam but the word itself does not end with this aksharam like 'sahajamagu prEma' 3. If the next aksharam is a 'ra vattu', it this aksharam can be considered either a guruvu or a laghuvu like 'shukra' Ramana From varigond@hp1.cems.umn.edu Mon Feb 24 15:56:09 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA27465 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:56:05 -0600 Received: from hp1.cems.umn.edu (hp1.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.8]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17229 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:56:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702242156.PAA17229@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: by hp1.cems.umn.edu (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA048531363; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:56:03 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:56:03 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9702241606.aa29600@HEL4.ARL.MIL> from "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" at Feb 24, 97 04:06:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text hi! > This should be considered neither an exception, nor poetic liberty. I doubt the statement that there is no clear rule for this. Infact, all the examples sited by Sri Ramakrishna fit under the scope of the rule I wrote in my previous mail. That is, any letter preceding a dvitvAkshram(especially, with ra-vattu)can be taken as laghuvu or guruvu at will **IF** that dvitvAksharam starts a new word or dhatu in sandhi when partitioned. I am stating this rule in my own words. But the original also goes in that manner only. That is why I requested for an 'authentic' correction. > In the final analysis, whether a syllable is "scanned" (a latin > prosodical term) as a guruvu or laghuvu depends on the way it is > enunciated; not on an antique rule propounded by some orthodox > grammarians. The above statement is again questionable because 'chandas' itself is a well established system of prosody where all the rules are made by "some orthodox grammarians". So, the syllable identification is also established. (Though, there may be some revisions if contemporary literary experts in consensus feel the necessity and agree to the changes, which is not applicable here, I feel!) regards, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From rama@sowpadu.guntur.com Mon Feb 24 16:17:40 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA27875 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:17:35 -0600 Received: from sowpadu.guntur.com (fox-sl3.easyway.net [205.232.178.251]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA17765 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:17:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from rama@localhost) by sowpadu.guntur.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id SAA10590; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 18:15:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 18:15:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199702242315.SAA10590@sowpadu.guntur.com> From: Ramarao Kanneganti To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana In-Reply-To: <199702242120.PAA16302@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> References: <199702242013.PAA03311@expert.cc.purdue.edu> <199702242120.PAA16302@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Reply-To: madhavi@easyway.net My views: Laghuvu and guruvu are dicided based on phonetic distinction. In fact, these rules are as much prevalent in the oral tradition as the "written" literature. Laghuvu is what you can say in one unit of time, where as guruvu takes two units of time. In desi chandassu, the matra vibhajana can take place solely on the units of times rather than laghu, guru sequences. Cf: indra gaNam etc. Now, when you say "amma", you are most likely pronouncing as "am" + "ma". The first syllable takes two units and the second one one unit. When you say "sahajamaguprEma", you are saying sahajamagu + prEma, thus not needing one additional unit for the last syllable of the first word. Needless to say, there are sufficient ambiguities in word division, allowing for some liberty to the poet. Thanks, Rama From nparinand@cas.org Mon Feb 24 16:29:08 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA28013 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:29:02 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA18040 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:28:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:28:23 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702241728.AA27163@cas.org> Subject: amRtAnjanamu To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu amRtAnjanamu ------------ RuturAjambu vasantamu rOga rahita rAjyam, amRtAnjanamu vasantamuna mODulunu cigurcunu manujula manamula namRtAnjanamu talircunu ||Rutu|| amRtAnjana darSanamuna rOgamu laDali davvugA parigiDucu cali ushNamu catikilabaDunu kamanIyamu dAni sEva nepuDu kalalOnainanu maruvakumu ||Rutu|| punDE kAnI gAyame kAnI katti tagilina ganTE kAnI carmamunaku sambandhincina bAdhala cayyana bApuTa dAninidhi ||Rutu|| AstmA pIDitulagu vRddhulunu gorinta daggu gala bAlurunu amRtAnjana mardhanatO pIDA vimuktulaguduru oka tRTilO ||Rutu|| takkina mandulu EvO okokka rOgamu mAnpa samardhamunEmO amRtAnjanamu sarvarOga samhArakamagu vajrAyudhamu ||Rutu|| itara DAkTarulavalenE iyyadi bratimilADinA rAnidi kAdu ninnanTukoni tirigi kudircE nErpu dAnike peTTani sommu ||Rutu|| mandESambu Gana svAtantrya mahima niTula nalrArE vELa man kAnandamu amRtAnjana dIpAvaLi nilipE utsava lIla. ------garimeLLa satyanArAyaNa (1947) WoW! How many Telugu poets, for that matter, how many other poets could or did write poems or songs for commercial advertisements of essential or nonessential commodities? May be there are some with concealed identities. Garimella did write the above poem to promote Amrutanjam. It was his Tragic Irony of Faty that he had to do such a job to put food on the plate. This was published in the Dipavali issue of 1947 Bharati, which explains that Garimella had to write such a commercialized song for a commercial purpose. Well! Like Sri Sri always used to say that cine songs did not reflect his real poetry but Garmella on the other hand did appear that he took this job even serious. A number of things one can see in his song as presented above. He described in detail but in a compact case, the nature of Amrutanjanamu. The whole nature of the mixture is bottled in the poem. The poem smells like Amrutanjanam. Look at his advertisement psychology. The man was a genius and a keen observer of human society. This poem was published in 1947, right after independence during the Divali time. Still people were euphoric about the newly given/obtained freedom. They were probably celebrating that along with the fireworks. Garimella jumped at the opportunity and used both, the moment of joy of new scent of freedom and the lusture of glowing magnesium metal flowers dropping from that burning fire cracker. Thus, tried to divert the attention of the readers towards Amrutanjanam Poetry. What a poet! ---pAlana From BRAO@atlas.niaid.nih.gov Mon Feb 24 17:14:39 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA28461 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:14:35 -0600 Received: from atlas.niaid.nih.gov (atlas.niaid.nih.gov [128.231.240.60]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA19078 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:14:34 -0600 (CST) Received: by atlas.niaid.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC227E.9556D210@atlas.niaid.nih.gov>; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 18:14:32 -0500 Message-ID: From: Bachoti Rao To: "'telusa@cs.wisc.edu'" Subject: RE: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 18:14:31 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sahajamagu prEma neelOna chacchenEmo! I am surprised about the two opposite views expressed about the gaNavibhajana in the above line. I agree with Pillalamarri Ramakrishna and J.K. Mohana Rao. gu in the above line cannot be a guruvu for reasons already explained by them. It is not an exception. It is not a poetic liberty. If Subba Rao garu is looking for converts, I wish him best of luck. Regards, Bachoti Sridhara Rao From vasu@india.hp.com Tue Feb 25 06:17:47 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA04821 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 06:17:38 -0600 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [15.253.88.10]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA00349 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 06:17:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from manu.india.hp.com (manu.india.hp.com [15.10.41.218]) by palrel3.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07666 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 04:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by manu.india.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA01090; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:49:42 +0500 From: Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao Message-Id: <9702251249.AA01090@manu.india.hp.com> Subject: Re: (Songs, Slights....) To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 17:49:41 IST In-Reply-To: ; from "Sitaramayya Ari" at Feb 22, 97 11:21 am X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] > Some times when the author is writing a beautiful piece of poetry with an > unambiguous aim, his biases creep in unintentionally. Should those be > ignored? > > For example: > > > kollAyi gaTTitE nEmI > mA gAndhi > kOmaTai puTTitE nEmI > > The poet is praising Gandhi of course. > He is also saying that Gandhi rose above his genetics. > As a Komati, should I be thrilled about this piece? I think celam was the first one who voiced an opinion similar to yours. Only you are more forgiving than celam was. celam almost ridiculed it and laughed at those who liked it! But IMHO, it is better to 'preserve' such stuff as they tell the generations to come how such biases are ingrained and show up involuntarily/inadvertently! Once you know it was written by a great writer of yesteryears, you will tend to defend it! Any effort to play up - as sometimes it happens - an apology for it merely represents the defender's value-system. > > Regards, > Sitaramayya Ari. > -- Regards & Thanks Vasu. From RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV Tue Feb 25 07:19:50 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA05961 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:19:45 -0600 Received: from FCRFV2.NCIFCRF.GOV (fcrfv2.NCIFCRF.GOV [129.43.51.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA01066 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:19:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 8:22:14 -0500 From: RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV To: telusa@CS.WISC.edu Message-Id: <970225082214.2042fcd7@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> Subject: RE: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Hi, I want to point out to an exception to the rule in the guru-laghu scheme. Fortunately, this occurs only in Sanskrit literature, not in Telugu. A laghuvu at the end of a line is considered as a guruvu. The following example is in the vRtta Vasantatilaka. "ApRccha putrakRtakAn hariNAn drumaMsca vindhyaM vanaM tava sakhirdayitA latAsca | vatsyami teSu himavadgirikAnaneSu dIptairivauSadhivanairuparanjiteSu ||" (Kale's edn of pratima) Syllabic representation for the second line: 2 2 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 vin dhyaM va naM ta va sa khir *da yi tA la tA sca ------------ --------- ----------- -------- ------ ta bha ja ja ga ga 1 - laghuvu; 2 - guruvu. Note that a laghu (short syllable) at the end of a pAda (line) is considered as a guru! One more little lesson is learnt. Have a nice day! - J. K. Mohana Rao From varigond@cems.umn.edu Tue Feb 25 08:10:48 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA06643 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:10:40 -0600 Received: from hp5.cems.umn.edu (hp5.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.5]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01789 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:10:39 -0600 (CST) Received: by hp5.cems.umn.edu (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA28483; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:16:20 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:16:20 -0600 (CST) Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:16:20 -0600 Message-Id: <9702251416.AA28483@hp5.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:16:20 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Bachoti Rao" at Feb 24, 97 06:14:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Hi! > I am surprised about the two opposite views expressed about the > gaNavibhajana > in the above line. I agree with Pillalamarri Ramakrishna and J.K. > Mohana Rao. I agree that the explanation based on phonetics is convincing. But all that I am saying is, I did come across a rule that tells us when to use this freedom. I merely stated the rule I learnt from my teachers. In these matters, I feel we can not act according to our personal preferences and hence, I requested for an authentic source that talks about this (whether this particular case with dvitvAksharAs is rule based or phonetics based). > gu in the above line cannot be a guruvu for reasons already explained > by them. I am denying it not because I don't like it but because, I remember reading some poems where such a letter is taken as guru also. Whether those poets are converts or not may be determined after the names are known! On my part, I am trying to check with a standard reference or to see if I can find a poem where such letter is taken as guru. > It is not an exception. It is not a poetic liberty. If Subba Rao garu > is looking for converts, > I wish him best of luck. > Bachoti Sridhara Rao Please let me make it clear what I said. I said there is a "rule" that explains the gaNa vibhajana. (a rule more explicit than a phonetic rule) I didn't say poets can take total liberty in such cases. So what I have to look for is whether such a rule exists or not. I need not bother about converts. regards, subbarao -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Tue Feb 25 08:14:30 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA06662 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:14:24 -0600 Received: from hel4.arl.mil (hel4.arl.mil [128.63.37.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01867 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:14:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 9:10:03 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Organization: Message-ID: <9702250910.aa06524@HEL4.ARL.MIL> Let me add a bit to what JKR said about vasantatilaka. BTW, how many of you did recognize the meter to be that of teh well-known wake-up call? The LSG rule is probably the result of singing. Where the last syllable is very often elongated. When the script says, Sree padmanAbha purushOttama vAsudEva it is of course sung as Sree padmanAbha purushOttama vAsudEvA..... At the end of the first chapter (ot parwa) in Andhra bhAratam, there is a vasanta-tilaka vRttam by nannaya. The first line is veerAvatAra sukavi-stuta dharma-nitya Of course the meter requires a guruvu at the end. In this case I am not sure if the second line has a word that would fulfill this "obligation". However, it is the practice in Sanskrit vRttas (which most of the chapter-ending poems in our literature are) to not wrap around lines; by which I mean each line ends in itself, and doesn't have words that overlap into the next line. One can see this in any of the well-known stOtra-poems, such as "lakshmeem ksheera samudra rAja tanayAm", "yA kundEndu tushAra hAra dhavaLAm", "kastUrI tilakam lalATa phalakE", ... (BTW all are SArdUlams - why?) However, poems written by telugu writers, (even when all the individual words are in sanskrit - such as SArada rAtrulu.., or Sree kRshNA, yadu bhooshaNA...) do wrap around the lines. In any case, it is a weak phenomemnon; no hard and fast rule applies here. On the matter of guru-laghu determination, except in some cases where the following compound-consonant is a rEpha-syllable, such as "prE", "krA", ... the rules are unambiguous. I thought that a similar latitude existed in the case of "xR" combination. That is, in words such as "vijRmbhincE", "vidhRtamati", etc... Is the "vi" here a guruvu or laghuvu? One can "read" the word both ways. With stress on the "vi" syllable, and without. So, the gait of the poem, while singing it, can be maintained in both cases, as needed. When Dasigi pointed out the violation in a poem that I posted at the beginning of the year, tombhai ArayipOyee tombhai yEDoccinadani tondaragA vij- RmbhincE kavivarulaku, pumbhAva saraswatulaku, pUrNa matulakun that the last syllabla in the second line (which is required to be a guruvu) is wrong, because "vi" in "vijRmbhincE" stays as a laghuvu, I feverishly looked in a few books for instances where such is not the case. I haven't found any. I made a similar mistake in another poem in the same post, millenniyammu kani tama villammula nekku peTTi, vidhRtamatulai tellAru jhAmu dAkA kaLLArpaka "kODu" cEyu kurrALLAkunun Even here, I am counting on "vi" in "vidhRta" to be a guruvu, as otherwise I am a matra short. I sought to take refuge in the poem akRura varada! kESava! cakrAyudha! .... but wasn't quite sure if that first word is "akRura" (with a long R-vowel) or plainly "akroora". How does one know? We'll have to wait until definitive voices reconcile this problem. I would request Dr. Tirumala Desikachari to throw some light on this matter. Otherwise, we may have to wait for an opinion from some chandO-expert from AP, or wait till next year, when I am expecting the arrival of such a person; Dr. Kovela Sampatkumaracharya. Ramakrishna From prasad@acm6.me.uiuc.edu Tue Feb 25 08:24:24 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA06774 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:24:19 -0600 Received: from acm6.me.uiuc.edu (acm6.me.uiuc.edu [128.174.125.26]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA02048 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:24:16 -0600 (CST) Received: by acm6.me.uiuc.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31352; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:24:11 -0600 From: prasad@acm6.me.uiuc.edu (Prasad Chodavarapu) Message-Id: <9702251424.AA31352@acm6.me.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: (Songs, Slights....) To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:24:11 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9702251249.AA01090@manu.india.hp.com> from "Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao" at Feb 25, 97 05:49:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text : > Some times when the author is writing a beautiful piece of poetry with an : > unambiguous aim, his biases creep in unintentionally. Should those be : > ignored? : > : > For example: : > : > : > kollAyi gaTTitE nEmI : > mA gAndhi : > kOmaTai puTTitE nEmI : > : > The poet is praising Gandhi of course. : > He is also saying that Gandhi rose above his genetics. : > As a Komati, should I be thrilled about this piece? IMHO, it seems to me that sri basavaraju apparao was only trying to provide an illustration of how foolish the system of determining one's stature based on his caste is. however, i certainly concede others can come to a different conclusion. certainly, they have a right to question the poet's intention, for, such a discussion, when conducted in a healthy atmosphere, would only helps in teaching those involved, more about the society and themselves. this is a sensitive but very important question. infact, our literature is replete with such remarks, not all made by such known patriots as sri basavaraju apparao. it is a different question whther we should judge yesterday's poets by today's value system. however, i would submit that when we are talking about the works of such venerable, inspiring poets like Sri basavarAju appArao, we should not blindly defend everything that he wrote. i would only think that such a blanket approval only insults his memory. our poetry is part of our heritage. it is thus imperative that such an inspiring body of our culture be kept alive by continuously and intensively subjecting it to critical discussion. any attempt to make it a sacred cow would only result in its degradation, for, it wouldn't be alive if we consider it beyond discussion. regards prasad -- ************************************************************** Prasad Chodavarapu * WWW Homepage: * 128C, Lyellwood Pk.way * * Rochester NY 14606 * http://acm7.me.uiuc.edu/~prasad * ************************************************************** ph:(716)-426-7634(R) * "manasanE oka sampada prati * (716)-726-9887(O) * manishilOnU unDanI, mamatalE * *************************** prati manasulO koluvunDanI" * e-mail:prasad@kodak.com * --rAjaSrI * ************************************************************** From RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV Tue Feb 25 09:01:33 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA07471 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:01:28 -0600 Received: from FCRFV2.NCIFCRF.GOV (fcrfv2.NCIFCRF.GOV [129.43.51.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02876 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:01:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:03:57 -0500 From: RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV To: telusa@CS.WISC.edu Message-Id: <970225100357.2042fcd7@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Hi, Pardon me for interjecting again. There is an obvious reason why the lahuvu at the end of a paada in a Sanskrit poem may be considered as a guruvu. Generally, in sanskrit poems, each line stands by itself. At the caesura (yati) and the end of the line, a pause is automatically introduced. Therefore the laghuvu becomes a guruvu. On the other hand, even though the vRttas are imported from Sanskrit, in Telugu, the lines are sometimes wrapped around and hence the need for a *real* guruvu. This is explained better in the appendices dealing with prosody in Sanskrit dramas. By the way, Vasantatilaka is one of the very often used Sanskrit vRttas, next only to SaarduulavikreeDita. Another question, why is there no mattEbha in Sanskrit or for that matter champakamaala or utpalamaala? Regards! - J. K. Mohana Rao From mahesh@expert.cc.purdue.edu Tue Feb 25 09:09:08 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA07630 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:09:01 -0600 Received: from expert.cc.purdue.edu (expert.cc.purdue.edu [128.210.10.11]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03042 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:09:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from mahesh@localhost) by expert.cc.purdue.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) id KAA24526 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:08:54 -0500 (EST) From: Mahesh Panchagnula Message-Id: <199702251508.KAA24526@expert.cc.purdue.edu> Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:08:53 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text NamasAram This discussion has been very enlightening. IMHO, there cannot be any rule that is more explicit than a phonetic rule. I can completley accept what Sri Mohana Rao garu and Ramakrishna garu say, but after all isn't all of grammar, just a formal statement of phoentic pronounciation? The example that my sanskrit teacher used to give comes to my mind. A grammarian is not like a potter. A potter makes a pot when society needs a pot, but a grammarian doesn't make a rule when needed. He can only formally state the usage of language at that time. Society doesn't go to a grammarian when it needs a word or usage. They just "use" it if it sounds phonetically right and then a grammarian comes along and formalises it. I may be mistaken here but isn't visarga sandhi and all the complex rules given by Panini just a statement of what was already in use? Regards, mahesh > I said there is a "rule" that explains the gaNa vibhajana. > (a rule more explicit than a phonetic rule) I didn't say > poets can take total liberty in such cases. So what I have to look for > is whether such a rule exists or not. I need not bother about converts. > From juvvadi@horizoncomp.com Tue Feb 25 09:37:58 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA07829 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:37:52 -0600 Received: from cygnus.horizoncomp.com (juvvadi@cygnus.horizoncomp.com [204.91.181.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03527 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:37:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (juvvadi@localhost) by cygnus.horizoncomp.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA02592 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:32:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:32:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Ramana R. Juvvadi" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: (Songs, Slights....) In-Reply-To: <9702251424.AA31352@acm6.me.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > kollAyi gaTTitE nEmI > mA gAndhi > kOmaTai puTTitE nEmI > I never really liked this unnecessary reference to Gandhi's caste here. To say the least it is very condescending. As a Telangana Vasi how am I supposed to react when somebody says "Telangana vaadivaitenemiti, telugu saahityamlO kuda interest choopistunnaavu" I am not making this up, I faced the comment hundreds of times. As an Indian, how am I supposed to react if an American says "Wow! for the education you had in India, you are displaying remarkable understanding of quantum mechanics." No American ever said that to me, but I would consider that less insulting than remarks of the type "Telanagana vaadivaitenem, komatai puditenem". While I am personally tolerant enough to brush it off, I want to warn others that not everybody would be so thick skinned. Having expressed my concerns, I want to come to the second part. I don't know whether it was an emotional call or he was serious but I find it disturbing, when people call for banning and deleting material. I just want to recall Voltaire "I may not agree with a single word of what you are saying, but I would defend your right to say it". Ideas are always fought by better ideas -- not with censorship. Ramana From BRAO@atlas.niaid.nih.gov Tue Feb 25 10:30:10 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA09172 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:29:55 -0600 Received: from atlas.niaid.nih.gov (atlas.niaid.nih.gov [128.231.240.60]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA04762 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:29:54 -0600 (CST) Received: by atlas.niaid.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC230F.35D822D0@atlas.niaid.nih.gov>; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:29:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: Bachoti Rao To: "'telusa@cs.wisc.edu'" Subject: RE: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:29:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sri Pillalamarri wrote: >that the last syllabla in the second line (which is required to be a >guruvu) is wrong, because "vi" in "vijRmbhincE" stays as a laghuvu, >Even here, I am counting on "vi" in "vidhRta" to be a guruvu, as >otherwise I am a matra short. In all these cases, the laghuvu before letters with R (R as in kRshNa) stays as laghuvu though we pronounce them with stress. That is because R is actually a vowel in our alphabet and such letters are not actually dvitvAkharas. We are not supposed to stress them and this is still respected in chando poetry, while writing as well as reading. Why should this be still so when we actually tend to stress them is another problem but in all these cases, the lack of stress doesn't alter the meaning and we can be perfectly happy without that stress since we have different letters for that. Though we say amrutamu while talking, amRtamu also sounds very elegant. Sri Subba Rao wrote (with respect to gu being a lahuvu (or guruvu) in sahajamagu prEma): >I said there is a "rule" that explains the gaNa vibhajana. >(a rule more explicit than a phonetic rule) I didn't say >poets can take total liberty in such cases. So what I have to look for >is whether such a rule exists or not. Please quote the rule when you find one. I would like to see if there is a rule to that effect anywhere. And exactly similar examples where such a letter is taken as guruvu. Regards, Bachoti Sridhara Rao From ari@Oakland.edu Tue Feb 25 10:54:28 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA10137 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:53:55 -0600 Received: from vela.acs.oakland.edu (ari@vela.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.2]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05428 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:53:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (ari@localhost) by vela.acs.oakland.edu (8.8.4/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA27266 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:53:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:53:48 -0500 (EST) From: Sitaramayya Ari To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: (Songs, Slights....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Ramana R. Juvvadi wrote: > > Having expressed my concerns, I want to come to the second part. > I don't know whether it was an emotional call or he was serious but I find > it disturbing, when people call for banning and deleting material. > I just want to recall Voltaire "I may not agree with a single word of > what you are saying, but I would defend your right to say it". > Ideas are always fought by better ideas -- not with censorship. I am not particularly attached to my suggestion that we should stop publishing literature in which one section or another was insulted. I am open to other suggestions that would rectify the situation. The bottom line, as I see it, is this: We are and will continue to be a democratic society. We should learn to treat everybody the way we want to be treated. Insulting one group or another in our literature cannot then be a part of accepted norms. When I think of the sensitivity of Americans and our Telugus to this idea of democratic behaviour, I find the Americans to be more sensitive. For example, the evidence, however good it was, collected by Furman in the OJ Simpson case, was not considered seriously because he used the n word. This sensitivity might have hurt the cause of justice in this one case, but sent a warning to thousands of police officers in the country. But I find our fellow Telugus to be less, much less, sensitive. As long as it was not their community that was insulted, they usually don't care. I remember one time asking a friend about Tyagaraja's Pancharatna Kirthanas in which there is a line something like - though I was born in the upper caste, I am behaving like one of lower caste. He shrugged it off. Some times I do think that these things should be left to perpetuate at least so the people appreciating them or singing them can be identified for what they are, insensitive to put it mildly, bigots to be harsh. regards, Sitaramayya Ari. From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Tue Feb 25 10:59:18 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA10367 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:59:10 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA05619 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:59:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA18541 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:59:08 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA856897145; Tue, 25 Feb 97 10:57:00 CST Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 10:57:00 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701258568.AA856897145@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: amRtAnjanamu Sree paalana's post on amRtAnjanamu Date: 2/24/97 4:42 PM reminds me of the following poem on the same subject...... -- aandhra patrikanicci amRtaanjana micci talaneppi baapina dhanyuDevaDu -- Does any of the nettors know the whole poem? I remember only the line cited above! (hata vidhee!! Or should I say EmicEtunu gurunaadhaa) BTW, if kaaSeenaadhuni naagEswara raavu pantulu gaaru did not go into the business of amRtaanjanaM, about three generations of telugus could not have had the pleasure of growing up with aandhra patrika and bhaarati. Both the magazines are defunct now, and amRtaanjanaM is alive and going (mahaa) stronger & stronger than ever!! Regards. Venkateswara Rao Veluri From BRAO@atlas.niaid.nih.gov Tue Feb 25 12:28:32 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA13054 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:28:23 -0600 Received: from atlas.niaid.nih.gov (atlas.niaid.nih.gov [128.231.240.60]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07897 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:28:22 -0600 (CST) Received: by atlas.niaid.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC231F.C4BFE540@atlas.niaid.nih.gov>; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:28:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Bachoti Rao To: "'telusa@cs.wisc.edu'" Subject: RE: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:28:19 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sri Mohana Rao wrote: >Another question, why is there no mattEbha in >Sanskrit or for that matter champakamaala or utpalamaala? Regards! Some time back, Sri Sadananda posted a slokam written by his renowned father Sri Kuntimaddi Sesha Sarma. vara vRshaSaila dhAma nutanAma samasta suraih lalita kaTAksha dAma navatAmarasOllasitam murabhidurasthala sphurita koustubha pIThakRta sthiti hRdayEcakAstu mamavastu nirasta tamah The chandas, I do not know the name, is like champaka maala sans the last four letters (viz., IUIU). There is so much beauty in that rhyme even without the last few letters. So I wonder if the full versions of cahmpaka maala and others are somewhere there in the Sanskrit literature. One more point in the above slokam relevant to our discussion. Tha in pIThakRta is laghuvu. Regards, Bachoti Sridhara Rao From srini@usiva.com Tue Feb 25 12:59:26 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA13927 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:59:20 -0600 Received: from gauntlet.usiva.com (uucp@gauntlet-all.usiva.com [206.67.217.2]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08666 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:59:19 -0600 (CST) Received: by gauntlet.usiva.com; id NAA17747; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:59:18 -0500 Received: from unknown(198.5.168.1) by gauntlet.usiva.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma017726; Tue, 25 Feb 97 13:58:56 -0500 Received: by usinet.usiva.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10291; Tue, 25 Feb 97 13:51:42 EST Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 13:51:42 EST From: srini@usiva.com (Srini) Message-Id: <9702251851.AA10291@usinet.usiva.com> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: RE: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Sri Mohana Rao wrote: > > Another question, why is there no mattEbha in > Sanskrit or for that matter champakamaala or utpalamaala? Regards! I remember Sri Madugula Nagaphani Sarma composing Sanskrit Padyam in champakamaala in the Satavadhaanam conducted in New Jersey. Also I remember he mentioning that the poem he composed also adheres to yati requirements, even though Sanskrit poems in that meter do not usually have them, in general. I will try to dig my notes to see if I can find it, and since many of our nettors also attended it, can throw more light on it.. With best regards -Srinivas Nagulapalli From nparinand@cas.org Tue Feb 25 13:27:43 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA14858 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:27:38 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09454 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:27:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:27:03 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702251427.AA11235@cas.org> Subject: candruni camtkAracana #1 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu I have been working on Dr.Chandra S. Balachandran's works. He is an excellent writer. I am a rolling stone and I have to breathe fresh air from time to time. That is goofy and I am crazy. Chandra gave me permission and here I go - I open another series " candruni camtkAracana". This is written in almost RIT convention. Use Chy. Prasad Chodavarapu' RITMAIL and get it printed in Telugu. May be it needs some adjustment here and there. --pAlana =============================================================================== pilli - pUja ------------ Anglam: candra bAlacandran telugu: pAlana cAlA rOjula kritam, amTE remDu vEla samvatsarAla kritam, pimDrivADa agrahAramlO O cinna kuTumbamokaTi vunDEdi. adi manushyula kuTumbamE! okanADu A imTlO amdarikI satyannArAyaNa pUja cEsukOvAlanipimcimdi. A samyamlO vALLimTlO elukala haDAviDi ekkuvaipOyimdi. mUshikasEna koTlO vunna tinubanDArAlannI tega vAyimcEstunnAyi adE panigA. appuDu A imTi vALLu veLLi pillinokaTi teccAru, elukala bAdhanumDi upaSamanam kaligimcukOvaDAnikani. mArjAlam A imTa aDugupeTTina muhurtam bAgumdEmO - elukala bAdha pOyimdi. A taram kadilimdi. mArjAla mAta kanna pilla(u)llO O pillani remDavataram vALLu pemcukonaDam AnavAyitI ayimdi. A imTlO ellappuDU O pilli vumDaDam valana remDO taram elukalu lEvika. ika I pilli cEsEdi lEka pOsina pAlu trAgaDamtO saripeTTukumdi. kAnI okka satyannArAyANa pUja A imTlO jarigE samayamlO mAtram, vamTimTlO O mUla O pedda ginne, nimDugA rucaina pAlatO, dikkU mokkU lEkumDA paDivumDEdi. A pAlu mana pillini vacci trAgamani bratimilADukunEvi. tana samGamlO lOkOktini ["nEnu kaLLu mUsukuni pAlu trAgitE, lOkamamtA cIkaTE. evvarU nannu cUDalEru"] talacukoni, dharma vAkkulugA parigaNimci, I pilli, kaLLu mUyaDam maracipOyi pAlu trAgEsariki, imTi vALLu paTTukunnAru (pillini). pApam! A pillini kaTTESAru. maroka taram kadilimdi - pillidI, A imTi manushyladInu. mUDava taram cAlA telivaina taram. satynnArAyaNa pUja rOjuna mumdugAnE pillini kaTTEyaDam modaleTTAru I taram A imTivALLu. ika goDavE lEdu. pUja digvijayamgA sAgipOyimdi. ceppukOvAlamTE prasAdam anni tarAlavALLu cEsE pUjalannimTilO brahmAmDamgA vumDEdi. A vULLO satyannArAyaNa pUjaki A illu peTTimdi pEraipOyimdi. maroka taram kadilimdi. krotta taram (manushylU, pillulU) vaccAru I prapamcamlOki. pillini satyannArAyaNa vratam samayamlO (pAlu trAgakumDA) tADutO kaTTaDam I taramlO A imTlO manushyulu cEstU vaccAru. imkoka taram kadilimdi. I sAri vaccina krotta taram mAnavuladE (A imTi vALLu mAtramE). duradRshTavaSAttu, pOyina taramlO pilliki pillalu puTTalEdu. kAbaTTi ika samtAnaBivRddhi lEkumDA A talli pilli pOyimdi - caccipOyimdi. kAnI A imTlO I krotta taram vALLu (manushyulu) satyannArAyaNa pUja cEyAlani samkalpimcukunnAru. imtalO okaru "umDamDi O nimusham! mana pUrvIkulu mana imTlO satyannArAyaNa pUja cEsE samayamlO pillini kaTTi paDEsEvAru." vemTanE vILLu bayaTaku pOyi, pillinokadAnni tecci, kaTTi paDEsi, satyannArAyaNa pUja cEsukunnAru. bAlacamdruni tudi paluku : ivvidhambugA ardham pardham lEni AcAravyavahArambulu, samskRti mariyu samskAram pErutO talalettunu. (with minor modifications) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I translated the story entitled "The Cat and the pUja", written by Dr. Chandra S. Balachandran (with affectionate permission). Chandra (as I call him) wrote and posted several articles, stories, essays and other literary stuff on the India Digest. He teaches Geography at the North Dakota State University (Asst. Prof.). I have been translating a number of his English writings in to Telugu with his kind permission. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine only. From chandra.kanneganti@FMR.COM Tue Feb 25 13:32:40 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA15023 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:32:30 -0600 Received: from gate3.fmr.com (gate3.fmr.com [192.223.170.13]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09588 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:32:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from adm@localhost) by gate3.fmr.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id OAA23488 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from msgbos100nts.fmr.com(137.199.145.25) by gw01i via smap (g3.0.3) id xma023443; Tue, 25 Feb 97 14:31:26 -0500 Received: by msgbos100nts.fmr.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC2328.9401A110@msgbos100nts.fmr.com>; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:31:24 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Kanneganti, Chandra" To: "'telusaa'" Subject: aidu kavitalu 3. agni sparSa Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:19:00 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit agni sparSa ----------- eppuDoo EdO manDutoonE vunTundi manTalu anTukunToonE vunTaayi kOrala naalkalu saachi namili mingEsi booDida voosEstoo! vechchadanaaniki karigipOyi chalimanTEnani muTTukunTE churukkumanTundi.. manTananTinci manTa maayamavutundi! manTE migulutundi- koorukunna burra baambai baddalavutundi lEstunna vimaanam nippumuddavutundi madhyavEsina pachchagaDDi bhaggumanTundi aakalEsina dooDa arustundi bhasmaasura hastam adimipaTTina ottiDiki akkaDO agniparvatam laavaa kakkutundi ikkaDO #gas# baavi #blow-out# avutundi anTukunna araNyaalu anta toragaa aaravu aarpaDaaniki kompallO neeLLoo vunDavu ekkaDO chamuru kaalutunna vaasana.. vanTillE vallakaaDu! Savaalaku sparSa teleedu ayinaa erragaa antaTaa EDupu- ayinaa gontukalu maryaadagaanE naDuchukunTaayi ayinaa lEka andukE inkO aggipulla muddu peTTukOkamaanadu - Chandrasekhararao Kanneganti From varigond@cems.umn.edu Tue Feb 25 15:10:50 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA17072 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:10:45 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11849 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:10:44 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA074015042; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:10:43 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:10:43 -0600 Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:10:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199702252110.AA074015042@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Exception to gaNa vibhajana To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:10:42 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Bachoti Rao" at Feb 25, 97 01:28:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Hi! Seems I am the only person holding a maverick notion! Any way, what I am interested in is truth even if that conflicts with my (or others') personal notions. I request the members not to take anything in my mails personally. First, could you make it clear what part in this rule is conceived incorrect so that I can verify that portion or search for any poems that used it? As I see it, it does not prohibit any of the cases which Sri Ramakrishna illustrated. It also includes the points mentioned by Mr. Ramana Juvvadi. It just grants a little more freedom to the poet when the letters in question belong to different words. >That is, any letter preceding a dvitvAkshram(especially, with ra-vattu)can >be taken as laghuvu or guruvu at will **IF** that dvitvAksharam starts >a new word or dhatu in sandhi when partitioned. > Sri Bachoti Rao wrote: > I am surprised about the two opposite views expressed about the > gaNavibhajana > Sri Mahesh wrote: > IMHO, there cannot be any rule > that is more explicit than a phonetic rule. I can completley accept what > Sri Mohana Rao garu and Ramakrishna garu say, but after all isn't all of > grammar, just a formal statement of phoentic pronounciation? I agree. Likewise, when a formal statement is available, isn't it easier and more concrete to talk in terms of this rule than going back to the first principles of phonetics. Of course, the origin lies in phonetics as you said. But formalized rules make things easier. For example, To decide whether a letter is guruvu, phonetically we say 'it should be pronounced in two mAtras of time'. But do we apply this rule for every letter when judging? We use the formal rules that epitomize this base fact. We say 'dIrghAksharAlu' are guruvulu. If I state this rule and say it's easier to apply, how am I disputing the phonetic origin of that rule? All that I am doing is to make the decision making simpler by a more concrete rule. Another example (you may not like it :-) ): If I want the derivative of a function, I don't always start from ab-initio definition of the derivative. limit h->0 stuff. I look for rules that I can apply more easily. If I don't find any, then I go to first principles. Is the use of such a rule in conflict or 'opposite' to the ab-initio method? If the rule I stated does not exist, it's a different story. But I fail to see how it is "opposite" to or in conflict with the phonetic rule. I will be grateful if you can write what part of the above rule you feel is incorrect so I can try to verify that from sources in AP. >Sri Ramakrishna wrote: >We'll have to wait until definitive voices reconcile this problem. >I would request Dr. Tirumala Desikachari to throw some light on this >matter. Otherwise, we may have to wait for an opinion from some >chandO-expert from AP, or wait till next year, when I am expecting >the arrival of such a person; Dr. Kovela Sampatkumaracharya. This will de extremely helpful. ************************************************************************* An observation about vRttas: This may be well known but the context seems right to say this. If the first letter of each padam of an utpalamAla is changed as two letters (laghuvus) preserving yati and praasa, the poem becomes champakamAla. Similarly, changing the first guruvu in SArdUlam as two laghuvus, the poem becomes mattEbham. So, there is not much difference between SArdUlam and mattEbham from chandas point of view. It is really surprising to know that there are not many mattEbhAs in sanskrit! -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From varigond@cems.umn.edu Tue Feb 25 15:39:09 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA17542 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:39:04 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12525 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:39:03 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA075576741; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:39:01 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:39:01 -0600 Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:39:01 -0600 Message-Id: <199702252139.AA075576741@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Correction please! To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu (telusa) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:38:59 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text hi! While I am searching for poems that take the letter preceding another dvitvAkshrA with ra-vattu as guruvu, I came across this poem. This poem is from Sri Madugula Nagaphani Sarma gAri satavadhanam taken from Lekha homepage (by Mr. Ramana Juvvadi) http://cygnus.horizoncomp.com/lekha/Shatavadhanam.html As I read it on the screen (telugu font) it goes like this. dattapadi: gaNapati,gaNapati,gaNapati,gaNapati vADutU vinAyakuni mIda champakamAla:- gaNapatiyai kavi pravara kalpanakun kaviyai suvighna bhanjanaam gaNapatiyai umAtanaya kamra guNOjjvala mUrtiyai bhuvin gaNapati saccidAtmaka jagadguru mUrti nitAnta yOgi, sat gaNapatiyai brOchu gAvuta sukha prachayimpu SatAvadhAnamun. The first padam has 23 letters (2 extra) and the last padam has 1 letter extra. 4th padam is okay if we remove 'yai' from 'gaNapatiyai'. The point is both these padams take the letters 'vi' in 'kavi pravara' in 1st padam and 'kha' in 'sukha prachayimpu' as guruvus even though the next letter has ra-vattu and starts a new word. I wish to know if there are any typos in the poem. Can somebody give the corrections please? regards, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From nparinand@cas.org Tue Feb 25 16:01:02 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA17989 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:00:48 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13103 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:00:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:00:08 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702251700.AA14079@cas.org> Subject: candruni camatkAracana #1 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu This is the same one I posted earlier in RIT - a Telugu translation (kind of) of Dr. Chandra S. Balachandran's The Cat and Puja (originally told by Sri Satya Sai Baba). I did some b....ig mistakes in my RIT. I corrected them and am posting the corrected RIT version. Just send it to "prasad@acm6.me.uiuc.edu" with "RITMAIL" in the SUBJECT field. You will get a PS file. Print it (after removing the message junk at the top). Enjoy! pAlana p.s. more coming soon ======================================================================== pilli - pUja Anglam: candra bAlacandran telugu: pAlana cAlA rOjula kritam, amTE remDu vEla samvatsarAla kritam, pimDrivADa agrahAramlO O cinna kuTumbamokaTi vunDEdi. adi manushyula kuTumbamE! okanADu aa imTlO amdarikI satyannArAyaNa pUja cEsukOvAlanipimcimdi. aa samayamlO vALLimTlO elukala haDAviDi ekkuvaipOyimdi. mUshikasEna koTlO vunna tinubanDArAlannI tega vAyimcEstunnAyi adE panigA. appuDu aa imTi vALLu veLLi pillinokaTi teccAru, elukala bAdhanumDi upaSamanam kaligimcukOvaDAnikani. mArjAlam aa imTa aDugupeTTina muhurtam bAgumdEmO - elukala bAdha pOyimdi. aa taram kadilimdi. mArjAla mAta kanna pilla(pillu)llO O pillani remDavataram vALLu pemcukonaDam AnavAyitI ayimdi. aa imTlO ellappuDU O pilli vumDaDam valana remDO taram elukalu lEvika. ika ii pilli cEsEdi lEka pOsina pAlu trAgaDamtO saripeTTukumdi. kAnI okka satyannArAyANa pUja aa imTlO jarigE samayamlO mAtram, vamTimTlO O mUla O pedda ginne, nimDugA rucaina pAlatO, dikkU mokkU lEkumDA paDivumDEdi. aa pAlu mana pillini vacci trAgamani bratimilADukunEvi. tana samGamlO lOkOktini ["nEnu kaLLu mUsukuni pAlu trAgitE, lOkamamtA cIkaTE. evvarU nannu cUDalEru"] talacukoni, dharmavAkkulugA parigaNimci, ii pilli, kaLLu mUyaDam maracipOyi pAlu trAgEsariki, imTi vALLu paTTukunnAru (pillini). pApam! aa pillini kaTTESAru. maroka taram kadilimdi - pillidI, aa imTi manushyuladInu. mUDava taram cAlA telivaina taram. satyannArAyaNa pUja rOjuna mumdugAnE pillini kaTTEyaDam modaleTTAru ii taram aa imTivALLu. ika goDavE lEdu. pUja digvijayamgA sAgipOyimdi. ceppukOvAlamTE prasAdam anni tarAlavALLu cEsE pUjalannimTilO brahmAmDamgA vumDEdi. aa vULLO satyannArAyaNa pUjaki aa illu peTTimdi pEraipOyimdi. maroka taram kadilimdi. krotta tarAlu (manushyulU, pillulU) vaccAyi ii prapamcamlOki. pillini satyannArAyaNa vratam samayamlO (pAlu trAgakumDA) tADutO kaTTaDam ii taramlO aa imTlO manushyulu cEstU vaccAru. maroka taram kadilimdi. ii sAri vaccina krotta taram mAnavuladE (aa imTi vALLu mAtramE). duradRshTavaSAttu, pOyina taramlO pilliki pillalu puTTalEdu. kAbaTTi ika samtAnaBivRddhi lEkumDA aa talli pilli pOyimdi - caccipOyimdi. kAnI aa imTlO ii krotta taram vALLu (manushyulu) satyannArAyaNa pUja cEyAlani samkalpimcukunnAru. imtalO okaru "umDamDi O nimusham! mana pUrvIkulu mana imTlO satyannArAyaNa pUja cEsE samayamlO pillini kaTTi paDEsEvAru." vemTanE vILLu bayaTaku pOyi, pillinokadAnni tecci, kaTTi paDEsi, satyannArAyaNa pUja cEsukunnAru. bAlacamdruni tudi paluku : ivvidhambugA ardham pardham lEni AcAravyavahArambulu, samskRti mariyu samskAram pErutO talalettunu. (with minor modifications) Story was told by Sri Satya Saibaba. bAlacandran retold it in English. I translated the story entitled "The Cat and the pUja", written by Dr. candra S. bAlacandran (with affectionate permission). Chandra (as I call him) wrote and posted several articles, stories, essays and other literary stuff on the India Digest. He teaches Geography at the North Dakota State University (asisTemT Prof.). I have been translating a number of his English writings in to Telugu with his kind permission. Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine only. From BRAO@atlas.niaid.nih.gov Tue Feb 25 16:29:05 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA18622 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:28:54 -0600 Received: from atlas.niaid.nih.gov (atlas.niaid.nih.gov [128.231.240.60]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13780 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:28:46 -0600 (CST) Received: by atlas.niaid.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC2341.585393D0@atlas.niaid.nih.gov>; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:28:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Bachoti Rao To: "'telusa@cs.wisc.edu'" Subject: RE: Correction please! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:28:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sri Subba Rao wrote: >gaNapatiyai kavi pravara kalpanakun kaviyai suvighna bhanjanaam >gaNapatiyai umAtanaya kamra guNOjjvala mUrtiyai bhuvin >gaNapati saccidAtmaka jagadguru mUrti nitAnta yOgi, sat >gaNapatiyai brOchu gAvuta sukha prachayimpu SatAvadhAnamun. >The point is both these padams take the letters 'vi' in 'kavi pravara' >in 1st padam and 'kha' in 'sukha prachayimpu' as guruvus even though the >next letter has ra-vattu and starts a new word. >I wish to know if there are any typos in the poem. First there are several typos in the poem. Leaving them aside, kavipravara as well as the other word (a typo again) are not to be considered two words. All samAsa's are to be considered single words. That removes a lot of confusion, I guess. sahajamagu prEma or gaNapati brOchu in the above poem (after your correction) are distinctly two words. Otherwise, ti in gaNapati will become guruvu again. As Pillalamarri garu pointed out, the rules are mostly unambiguous. Regards, Sridhara Rao From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Tue Feb 25 16:30:06 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA18653 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:29:59 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13803 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:29:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA26755 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:29:57 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA856916994; Tue, 25 Feb 97 16:26:22 CST Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 16:26:22 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701258569.AA856916994@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: Telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: A parody to kRshNa sAstri gaari "nEnu kooDa" nEnu guruvu kaadu kaadu nEnu laghuvu - or whatever! Enu meevale nee gurvugEli jEya neMto ubalaaTa paDi savariMtu laghuvu lanni; mee vale kaavya lOla gaana maalakiMcaMga bhrama jeMdi maaTa luDigi chaMda SOkaaMdhakaarammu naMdu baDiti! aina nEmaaye! aa panElEni chaMda bandhanammu leDada rodabeTTu naadu vaakya maMtamaMduna laghuvu vaali joocu daari lEni gaNa gaNanaTeDaarulaMdu -- mooga vOyina naa gaNammulavi kooDi niduralEvani guruvula rodalu peTTu aina nEmaaye -- meeru manasaaragaa raayaneeru nannu nannu viDuvuDu! laghuvaina nannu viDici naMtanE caMpaka vRttamai goMtu ciMci vekki vekki rOdiMtunu - visuvu lEka virati lEka karkaSa paMDita vishama neetu lEDci vaitu; eluMgetti EDci vaitu. E mahotpala maalikaa stOma DOli kaaMtamula niMka nE naaTya maaDa lEnu; nEnu cirunavvu pedavula nilupalEnu;-- aa praLaya chaMdasaamOda bhaaramiMka nEnu vahiMpalEnu; jeeviMpa lEnu!! (It could go on and on and on, -- but I can't tax your patience any further!) Regards. Venkateswara Rao Veluri ps: jalasootraM rukmiNee naadha saastri and maaciraaju dEveeprasaad are the only two outstanding parody writers in modern telugu literature; -- and, they could have easily improved on the pale parody I have subjected you to suffer! From varigond@cems.umn.edu Tue Feb 25 17:16:46 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA19779 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:16:40 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA14917 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:16:40 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA081102598; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:16:38 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:16:38 -0600 Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:16:38 -0600 Message-Id: <199702252316.AA081102598@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Correction please! To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:16:38 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Bachoti Rao" at Feb 25, 97 05:28:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text If you don't like this to be discussed on telusa, may I request you to give me your personal email? > First there are several typos in the poem. Leaving them aside, > kavipravara as well as the other word (a typo again) are not to be > considered two words. All samAsa's are to be considered single words. Could you tell me what kind of example you are expecting me to provide in order to validate my point? I don't have a clear idea what you are considering as incorrect in the statement I made! Even within a samasam, I think I can find poems where both laghu and guru are allowed to be taken for a preceding letter. Or, in a non-samaasam, I can try to find a usage where precding letter is taken as guruvu. Is that what you are looking for from me? I have found a few more uses that take the letter before rEpha as guruvu after a brief search on the net! But they do fall under your samaasa criterian. I am giving a serious thought to your samasa criterian. > That removes a lot of confusion, I guess. sahajamagu prEma or > gaNapati brOchu in the above poem (after your correction) are distinctly > two words. Otherwise, ti in gaNapati will become guruvu again. > As Pillalamarri garu pointed out, the rules are mostly unambiguous. The rules are unambiguous! Quite right. That is my point too. But does the rule allow freedom or not? > > Regards, > > Sridhara Rao > Could you evaluate the following statements please? 1. The letter preceding a non-repha dvitvaakshara of a new word can be taken as laghu or guruvu. 2. The letter preceding any dvitvAkshara within the same word must be guruvu. 3. The letter preceding a repha dvitvaakshara of a new word can be taken as laghuvu or guruvu. depending on what you conider incorrect, I can look for that usage. thank you. subbarao PS: R we getting too pedantic?! -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Tue Feb 25 18:23:53 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA20446 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:23:47 -0600 Received: from hel4.arl.mil (hel4.arl.mil [128.63.37.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA16217 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:23:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 19:26:42 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: Re: Correction please! Organization: Message-ID: <9702251926.aa04216@HEL4.ARL.MIL> I am a little busy at the moment, but would like to post some excerpts from "Andhra mahAbhAratamu - chandahSilpamu" by pATibanDa mAdhava Sarma, and another book (the title escapes me at the moment) of essays on chandassu by kOvela sampatkumArAcArya. I think I may have read a passage in the first book that supports the contentionthat a laghuvu before a rEphAksharam MAY remain a laghuvu, or change into a guruvu. This applies only to the compound-consonants where the second consonat (the main one, though in telugu it is shortened to a vottu) is of ra-persuasion. I understand the rule behind the vidhRta, vijRmbhaNa, ... words. Yet, I believe (could be a wrong belief!) that I may have read some poems where that was not the case. Now, it could be mistake of the poet, which doesn't create a new rule, or amend the present rule. In an earlier post where I referred to "orthodox grammarians", I am not putting them down (if you follow the dhwani there). It was a back-door attempt to say that the so-called "rules" are merely "codifications" of observed phenomenon. Just as Newton did not "dictate" that every action shall have an equal and opposite reaction. He merely observed the fact, noted it, and codified it into a succinct rule/law. I believe a couple of posts said this, in not so many words, including Nagulapalli Srinivas. Despite no out-and-out "flames", I do detect an under-current of "cirAku" at each other's views. As VSR said, let us pursue this only with the view of getting at a better understanding of the process, and not to prove our own hypothesis. If necessary, we can carry this discussion off-the-net, between a half-a-dozen or so interested parties. I see that it is already giving a headache to the likes of vElUri venkatESwara rAvu. (It took me a while to get to that opinion, carefully reading the pseudo-metrical structure in which he said it. teliyaka aDugutAnu, chandassunu vekkirincaDAniki pOtU, aa chandO-baggage mOsukupOvaTamenduku?) Ramakrishna From narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Tue Feb 25 18:32:50 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA20489 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:32:45 -0600 Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu [129.25.3.11]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16364 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:32:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from [144.118.12.138] (spray1.coe.drexel.edu [144.118.12.138]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA26918 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:31:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:31:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702260031.TAA26918@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> X-Sender: narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu From: narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Nasy Sankagiri) Subject: Re: Correction please! I have been following this discussion with interest. Till this morning, Sri Varigonda seemed to be fighting a losing battle, and boom - he bounces back.. > >gaNapatiyai kavi pravara kalpanakun kaviyai suvighna bhanjanaam >gaNapatiyai umAtanaya kamra guNOjjvala mUrtiyai bhuvin >gaNapati saccidAtmaka jagadguru mUrti nitAnta yOgi, sat >gaNapatiyai brOchu gAvuta sukha prachayimpu SatAvadhAnamun. > >The first padam has 23 letters (2 extra) and the last padam has 1 letter >extra. 4th padam is okay if we remove 'yai' from 'gaNapatiyai'. > >The point is both these padams take the letters 'vi' in 'kavi pravara' >in 1st padam and 'kha' in 'sukha prachayimpu' as guruvus even though the >next letter has ra-vattu and starts a new word. > Point well taken, sir, and that point is definitely in your favor. I have two things to say. 1) Correction: As you rightly guessed, avadhaani gaaru retracted the 'yai' from the last line before completing the poem. I consulted my notes. 2) If I may suggest something to resolve this conflict of laghu/guru, after making all the usual disclaimers that I am no chandO pundit, etc. The confusion is probably creeping in due to extensive use of samskRta padAlu in telugu poems - samskRta padAlu have the habit of uniting not only by means of sandhi, but also by samAsam. Say two words are united in a samAsam, but writing in telugu, we write them as two separate words..wouldn't that answer this question? Taking this example at hand, 'kavi pravara' - if this is a samAsam (I don't know: I don't even know what it means), then it is one word and 'vi' is a guruvu. If not, then they are two words and 'vi' is a laghuvu. In the case of the root cause of all this discussion, 'sahajamagu prEma', that is not a samAsam (I know that much!), so there is no way 'gu' can be counted as guruvu. Does that provide any 'samanvayam' to the two schools of thought? While we are talking about SatAvadhAnam, someone asked for the samskRta campakamAla form that avdhAnam; Here it is: The pRchchaka (varNana) asked for a campakamAla in samskRtam on Adi Sankara. avadhAni gAru commented that there is no campakamAla in samskRtam, and then there are no yati/prAsa, but he'd recite one with all the fixin's. (muDO pAdam civara, Sankara anE mATa virigi nAlugO pAdamlOki dorlindi - samskRtamlO kudaradu). sphurita mahatva tatva rasa sundara mUrtirahO virAjatE varajita maNDanO vijaya vAGbhava kIrti ratrabhOh sthira mahitAdwaya vicitra viVEka vibhAga pUrNa San- -kara guru ratra pUrNa rasa kandhara mUrtirahO virAjitAm. Regards Nasy From vrveluri@worldnet.att.net Tue Feb 25 19:28:25 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA21344 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:28:15 -0600 Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mailhost.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA17518 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:28:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from shanti ([207.146.160.31]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA15226 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:25:58 +0000 Message-ID: <3314D428.411F@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:24:08 -0600 From: Venkateswara Rao Veluri X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Correction please! References: <9702251926.aa04216@HEL4.ARL.MIL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri wrote: [ snip ] > I see that it is already giving a headache to the likes > of vElUri venkatESwara rAvu. (It took me a while > to get to that opinion, carefully reading the pseudo-metrical structure > in which he said it. teliyaka aDugutAnu, chandassunu vekkirincaDAniki > pOtU, aa chandO-baggage mOsukupOvaTamenduku?) > Ramakrishna A parody is a parody is a parody - Nothing more; nothing less. Now, for the parenthetical "dharma sandEhaM" of raamakRshNa: ayyaa! cinna paamuni kooDaa pedda karratO koTTamannaaru. andukaE chandO-baggagee!! ______ The following is from sulakshNa saaraM by liMgamaguMTa timmakavi. It has become famous as a kRiti by vellaMki taatabhaTTu. The edition I am quoting from has been critically revised by raavoori dorasaami Sarma and edited and compiled by bulusu veMkaTa ramaNayya. baalasaraswati book depot has reprinted (very badly, at that!) it in 1992 and sold it for Rs.20.00 only. ka. vividhamuga jaapi palikeDu naviyunu mari yoodi paluku naviyunu guruvul; bhuvinilipi paluku varNamu- lavi yellanu laghuvulayye; naMbudhi Sayanaa! eg: amma - In this 'a' voodi palikE aksharaM. It is before the saMyuktaaksharaM. Hence it is a guruvu. ka. guruvulu - niDudalu, jaDDa kkaramula boTTula piruMdakaDa noodina ya kkaramulu; perayavi laghuvulu; gurulaghuvulu mooDu gooDi kona gaNamulagun jaDDalakumuMdunna aksharaM anagaa saMyuktaaksharamuku muMdunnadani arthamu. (piruMdakaDa noodina aksharamulu guruvulanuTacE saMyuktaaksharamu prakka nunnanu voodi palukani aksharamu guruvu kaanEradu.) eg: ataDu vyaapaari - iMdu 'Du' voodi paluka nEradugaana laghuvE. saadharraNamugaa nEka padamaMdu naDuma saMyuktamunna tatpoorvaaksharamu guruvagunu. That's all. Regards. vEloori veMkaTEswara raavu vraalu ps: iMtakee naa saMtakaMlOni raavulO 'vu' guruvaa? laghuvaa? From sreeni@ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de Wed Feb 26 00:07:08 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA24511 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 00:07:01 -0600 Received: from ktp_serv.uni-paderborn.de (ktp_serv.uni-paderborn.de [131.234.180.5]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA22037 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 00:06:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from ktpsp6.ktpsp (ktpsp6.uni-paderborn.de [131.234.180.2]) by ktp_serv.uni-paderborn.de (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA03969 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:05:52 +0100 Received: by ktpsp6.ktpsp (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA07371; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:06:56 +0100 From: sreeni@ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Message-Id: <199702260606.HAA07371@ktpsp6.ktpsp> Subject: Is "telusaa" an `elite' group of ....? To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu (telusaa Mailing List) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:06:55 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP2] Content-Type: text Greetings! Have been following the "ChandO" discussion (and also the one on BA's _kollaayi gaTTitEnEmi_) with keen interest. Wish, had the time to throw my hat 'also' in to the ring. I see more than 35 messages in the past 3-4 days on just this, purely Telugu related, topic. My question is why its not cross-posted to SCIT also. Well, a couple of weeks back Sri Varigonda enquired on SCIT what was wrong with "telusa-scit" gateway. Probably it was (/is) down. I don't know. BUT, i. almost EVERY ONE of you who posted here in the past 4 days do have access to SCIT ii. know that its read by infinite times more readership than "telusa" iii. that there are interested readers there also who would like to be enlightened and educated by such high-quality discussions iv. with possible exception of two nettors, rest of them were (/are) regular SCITers. So, why this step-motherly treatment towards SCIT? We can't deny the fact that this list came to formation only because of the earlier acquaintances through SCIT. Am I wrong? Some sites does n't provide Usenet/NNTP access is IMHO not an excuse. You know that there are web sites from where you can post very easily. In this age every one of you have access to a web browser. So, Just a few key strokes away from you ..... I can only sincerely request everyone to post the further discussions (also from the recent past) to SCIT also. Thanks and Regards, Sreenivas From vasu@india.hp.com Wed Feb 26 00:21:18 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA24748 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 00:21:12 -0600 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [15.253.88.10]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22237 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 00:21:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from manu.india.hp.com (manu.india.hp.com [15.10.41.218]) by palrel3.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03264 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by manu.india.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA01499; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:53:12 +0500 From: Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao Message-Id: <9702260653.AA01499@manu.india.hp.com> Subject: Re: A parody to kRshNa sAstri gaari "nEnu kooDa" To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 11:53:12 IST In-Reply-To: <9701258569.AA856916994@smtpgate.anl.gov>; from "Rao Veluri" at Feb 25, 97 4:26 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] sri vaeloori gaaru says: > > nEnu guruvu > kaadu kaadu > nEnu laghuvu - or whatever! > > ........... > > (It could go on and on and on, -- but I can't tax > your patience any further!) which chhandassu is it? is any violation of any chhandoeniyamam subtly presented? is it posted as a reply to the ongoing 'line-ending-laghuvus vs compound-letter-preceding guruvus' debate? this dumb-guy wants to know. -- Regards & Thanks Vasu. From vasu@india.hp.com Wed Feb 26 00:55:08 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA24987 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 00:55:02 -0600 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [15.253.88.10]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22606 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 00:55:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from manu.india.hp.com (manu.india.hp.com [15.10.41.218]) by palrel3.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA06423 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by manu.india.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA01531; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:27:09 +0500 From: Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao Message-Id: <9702260727.AA01531@manu.india.hp.com> Subject: Re: Correction please! To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 12:27:09 IST In-Reply-To: <3314D428.411F@worldnet.att.net>; from "Venkateswara Rao Veluri" at Feb 26, 97 6:24 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] sri vaeloori answers my Qs before he read my Q-Post. > vEloori veMkaTEswara raavu vraalu > > ps: iMtakee naa saMtakaMlOni raavulO 'vu' guruvaa? laghuvaa? Just seen this one. After posting those Qs. I believe your Q answered my Qs. Now i answer yours! it is guruvu. there are two good reasons. i) there wasn't much time. so i read it so quickly that it was like reading one word/samaasam. ii)whoever educates me is a guruvu. -- Regards & Thanks Vasu. From vasu@india.hp.com Wed Feb 26 02:45:27 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA02465 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 02:45:18 -0600 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [15.253.88.10]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA26992 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 02:45:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from manu.india.hp.com (manu.india.hp.com [15.10.41.218]) by palrel3.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA15367 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 00:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by manu.india.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA01564; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:17:23 +0500 From: Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao Message-Id: <9702260917.AA01564@manu.india.hp.com> Subject: Re: aidu kavitalu 3. agni sparSa To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 14:17:22 IST In-Reply-To: ; from "Kanneganti, Chandra" at Feb 25, 97 1:19 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] candraSaekhar finally posts: I will do some loud thinking: > agni sparSa > ----------- > > > eppuDoo EdO manDutoonE vunTundi > manTalu anTukunToonE vunTaayi > kOrala naalkalu saachi namili mingEsi > booDida voosEstoo! Alright! Go ahead! Summer has set in, here in India. > > vechchadanaaniki karigipOyi > chalimanTEnani muTTukunTE > churukkumanTundi.. Mothers cautioned us! Age Old Wisdom! > manTananTinci manTa maayamavutundi! > manTE migulutundi- Remindful of Sakuntaloepaakhyaanam and of bRhadaaraNyakoepanishat.. > koorukunna burra baambai baddalavutundi > lEstunna vimaanam nippumuddavutundi > madhyavEsina pachchagaDDi bhaggumanTundi God Agni manifests himself in several ways. All are His functions. > aakalEsina dooDa arustundi Agni is friends with jaThara. > bhasmaasura hastam > adimipaTTina ottiDiki > akkaDO agniparvatam laavaa kakkutundi > ikkaDO #gas# baavi #blow-out# avutundi There is no moehinee here. Only swaahaadaevi helping her husband. > anTukunna araNyaalu anta toragaa aaravu > aarpaDaaniki kompallO neeLLoo vunDavu Agni, an element, doesn't always go well with his elemental brother, jala. > ekkaDO chamuru kaalutunna vaasana.. > vanTillE vallakaaDu! > Savaalaku sparSa teleedu > ayinaa erragaa antaTaa EDupu- > ayinaa gontukalu maryaadagaanE naDuchukunTaayi > ayinaa lEka andukE > inkO aggipulla muddu peTTukOkamaanadu Back to the kitchen! Back to the basics!! BTW, was there any typografical error in the penultimate line? I think not; but the syntax was.... > - Chandrasekhararao Kanneganti Let me also add that this poem is not so good as your maTTi vaasana. I know you will take it in the right spirit. -- Regards & Thanks Vasu. From sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil Wed Feb 26 05:54:00 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA08529 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 05:53:55 -0600 Received: from anvil.nrl.navy.mil (anvil.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.184.16]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA29462 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 05:53:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from [132.250.185.112] (k-sadananda.nrl.navy.mil) by anvil.nrl.navy.mil (4.1/4.7) id AA09603; Wed, 26 Feb 97 06:51:41 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 06:53:53 -0500 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu From: sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil (sadananda) Subject: RE: Exception to gaNa vibhajana Sri Bocheti Sridhara Rao wrote: >Some time back, Sri Sadananda posted a slokam written by his renowned >father Sri Kuntimaddi Sesha Sarma. > >vara vRshaSaila dhAma nutanAma samasta suraih >lalita kaTAksha dAma navatAmarasOllasitam >murabhidurasthala sphurita koustubha pIThakRta >sthiti hRdayEcakAstu mamavastu nirasta tamah > >The chandas, I do not know the name, is like champaka maala sans the >last four letters (viz., IUIU). There is so much beauty in that rhyme >even without the last few letters. So I wonder if the full versions >of cahmpaka maala and others are somewhere there in the Sanskrit >literature. > >One more point in the above slokam relevant to our discussion. Tha in >pIThakRta is laghuvu. > >Regards, > >Bachoti Sridhara Rao Thanks for posting the poem. Just a correction and information. It was written by my greate greate greate....(9th greate) grand father - Tirumala Narasimhacharlu and text is Sree stuti (Tirumala Deshikaacharlu of canada also comes from the same clan). My father found the taalapatraalu which were in little dipalidated condition and trascribed the book filling here and there and gave it me before he passed away asking me to make sure that it gets published. The text is very profound and full of alankaaras. Reading that made me humble. I just completed putting the text using Deshikaachaari's fonts and getting it proof read. My father has written tiika for this in telugu and I wanted to traslate the tiika into english so that non-telugus also can appreciate it. Sri Sridhara Rao's posting reminded me of my duty. The chandas for the poem is - na ja bha ja ja la ga - was identified as Natkutaka vR^ithii. Thus it is close to utpala maala. While traslating into Sanskrit Allasaani Peddana's Manucharitra as Manusambhavam (Published by the Andha Sahitya Acadamy) and Krishna Devaraaya's Amukata Maalyada as Vishnuchittiiyam (Publishjed by TTD), my father has used in sanskrit several telugu vritiies including aataveladi, Teetagiiti, seesam etc with praasa. When time permits I will try to post some of these poems from them in telusa and Sanskrit Digest. For now I am going to unsubscribe from telusa for a month, till I return from India. By the by - Speack Sanskrit Classes by Samskrita Bharati are going on in Washington D.C. If they are being orgnized in your place, my strong advice is not to miss them. I am enjoying the discussion on Chandas. Hari Om! Sadananda From rdokka@water.atlcom.net Wed Feb 26 08:49:21 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA10724 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:49:16 -0600 Received: from water.atlcom.net (water.atlcom.net [205.230.107.148]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01796 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:49:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from dba ([130.0.0.102]) by water.atlcom.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-28868U110) with ESMTP id AAA242 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:45:22 -0500 From: rdokka@water.atlcom.net (Ram Dokka) To: Subject: Vanguri Foundation's contest... (vangUri vAri pOTI) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:48:32 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970226144522237.AAA242@dba> **************************************************************************** Sub : ISwara nAma samvatsara "ugAdi" sandarBamgA, vangUri vAri pOTI.. **************************************************************************** Friends !! Here are some details about this contest -- Vanguri Foundation of America has once again announced a contest in writing in Telugu open for all telugu writers across North America. The categories are "Short story ", "Poetry/Song" and "navala". The contest, conducted every year to encourage and inspire telugu writers living abroad, gives away $ 116 and $ 58 for the first and the second selections in Short Story and Poetry categories and $ 200 for the best selection in "navala" category. The Vanguri foundation will publish the prize winning entries and other selected entries in a book form. The 1996 competition drew a lot of attention and appreciation.The stories selected from this first competition were published as their third volume in the America Telugu Kathanika series. "Navala" section has been added this year. The last date for submitting your articles for this year's contest is 8th April 97 for the Poetry and Short Story categories and 1st of June 97 for the "navala" category. The winners will be selected by a group of judges under the guidance of Sri Pemmaraju Venugopala Rao, General Editor, Vanguri publications. Guide lines for submissions -- 1. Submissions to Short Story category should be confined to 10 hand written pages. For the Poetry section, the limit is two hand written pages and for the "navala" the limit is 200 hand written pages. 2. Only original and previously unpublished works will be accepted. The authors must send their name and address along with their submissions even if they use a pen name. 3. The language used in the articles can be vyavahaarikam or graandhikam. 4. Articles must be mailed to Vanguri Foundation of America, Inc., P.O.Box 1948, Stafford, TX 77497 Please contact the following for more details -- Sri P.Venugopala Rao -- (404) 634-4982 (R) (404) 727-4297 (W) Sri Vanguri Chitten Raju -- (281) 493-9054 (R) (281) 499-4444 (W) **************************************************************************** regards.. - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka from rdokka@water.atlcom.net) From BRAO@atlas.niaid.nih.gov Wed Feb 26 10:25:53 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA12391 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:25:48 -0600 Received: from atlas.niaid.nih.gov (atlas.niaid.nih.gov [128.231.240.60]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA03931 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:25:44 -0600 (CST) Received: by atlas.niaid.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC23D7.C6992F80@atlas.niaid.nih.gov>; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:25:31 -0500 Message-ID: From: Bachoti Rao To: "'telusa@cs.wisc.edu'" Subject: RE: Correction please! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:25:29 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sri Subba Rao Varigonda wrote: >If you don't like this to be discussed on telusa, may I request you to >give me your personal email? I didn't say anything about not liking to discuss this on telusa. If you want to send me email, you are most welcome. The address is in the header. >Could you tell me what kind of example you are expecting me to provide >in order to validate my point? I don't have a clear idea what you are >considering as incorrect in the statement I made! Simple. Authentic examples in which usages like sahajamu prEma, treat mu as guruvu. Because yous said that it can be treated as guruvu, I am asking for other examples. (or Du in ataDu vyApAri as guruvu or vi in kavipravara as laghuvu). >Even within a samasam, I think I can find poems where both laghu and >guru are allowed to be taken for a preceding letter. >Or, in a non-samaasam, I can try to find a usage where precding letter is >taken as guruvu. >Is that what you are looking for from me? You made the claim. So please fortify your argument with examples. Then we can discuss more definitively. >The rules are unambiguous! Quite right. That is my point too. >But does the rule allow freedom or not? I think laghuvu and guruvu are not the domains where you want to exercise freedom because that defeats the very purpose of writing in chandas. >Could you evaluate the following statements please? >1. The letter preceding a non-repha dvitvaakshara of a new word can be > taken as laghu or guruvu. >2. The letter preceding any dvitvAkshara within the same word must be guruvu. >3. The letter preceding a repha dvitvaakshara of a new word can be taken as > laghuvu or guruvu. >depending on what you conider incorrect, I can look for that usage. Subba Rao garu! This is not fair. You are asking me to make a statement so you can go and search for usages that contradict my statement. Rather, it is easier to look at specific usages. Regards, Bachoti Sridhara Rao From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 11:41:52 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14401 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:41:48 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06005 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:41:47 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA108088903; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:41:43 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:41:43 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:41:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199702261741.AA108088903@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Chandas To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:41:42 -0600 (CST) Cc: scit@icarve2.me.wisc.edu (soc.indian.culture.telugu) In-Reply-To: from "Bachoti Rao" at Feb 26, 97 11:25:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > Sri Ramakrishna said: > I think I may have read a passage in the first book that supports the contention > that a laghuvu before a rEphAksharam MAY remain a laghuvu, or change into a > guruvu. This applies only to the compound-consonants where the second consonant > (the main one, though in telugu it is shortened to a vottu) is of ra-persuasion. Similar experience has motivated me to make the statement which caused this much furore! I also found instances where that freedom is used for non-repha words. If it were a modern or not that reputed poet, I coould have taken it as a poetic exception committed by that poet. (BTW, I apologize for a misunderstanding on my part. I stated a rule and simulateneously said it's a poetic exception. But how can it be a poetic exception when it is within the scope of a rule? I should have said 'an exceptional rule' allows that instead of saying it's 'poetic exception') > I understand the rule behind the vidhRta, vijRmbhaNa, ... words. Yet, I > believe (could be a wrong belief!) that I may have read some poems where > that was not the case. Now, it could be mistake of the poet, which doesn't > create a new rule, or amend the present rule. It's very likely that it's a mistake by the poet. I believe, as someone already said, 'R' is a vowel and not 'rEpha'. So, it can't make the preceding letter guru. Though I, a layman can't see much diffrence in pronunciation (R and ru/ri & vowel 'L' and 'lu'), there may be a distiction in linguistic between these. I verified some sanskrit sthotras (rAvaNuni rudra vINa and SrI rAmakRshNa kavi yokka mahishAsura mardini) and made some pertinent observations. Since they are based on the above articles only, logically my statements can't be confirmative. But I would like to see if any counter examples are known. 1. Even in sanskrit, R is taken as vowel only. The preceding letter won't become guru if R is there in a letter. (Supports the better known telugu rule). 2. The letter before a repha dvitva is taken many times as guruvu both in long samaasas and words of separate samaasas. (I felt it a bit difficult to distinguish between samaasas and non-samaasas because I didn't know the meanings of many words. I have an RTS version of rudravINa at my website. Does anybody have knowledge about the dvitvA problem in sanskrit? eg: one line from rudravINa (jaTA TarIga lajjala pravAha pAvitasthalE...) is: # dhvani krama pravartita pracanDa tAnDava SSivah # The whole sthotram fits into the pattern (1212121212121212) according to my observation. (I have no knowledge of sanskrit chandas. The discussion on sanskrit vRttas was enlightening. I could realize the parallels!) 3. SArdUla vRttas in sanskrit: (not in above articles) I didn't observe praasa in the sanskrit vRttas (yA kundEndu, lakshmIm, kEyUrANi, vyAlam bAla ... etc). Is praasa specific to telugu literature? Then even if telugu poets took the liberty of breaking words across lines, they introduced a new restriction among padas. One loss and one gain. May be we can discuss about this after we settle the confusions over usage in telugu! > In an earlier post where I referred to "orthodox grammarians", I am not > putting them down (if you follow the dhwani there). It was a back-door attempt > to say that the so-called "rules" are merely "codifications" of observed > phenomenon. I quite agree. Many thanks to vElUri gAru for providing info from sulakshana sAram. I tried hard to get a copy of the same I left in India. But it would take a long time. He came to the rescue of us. After reading his final question, I realize how difficult it is to give a > ps: iMtakee naa saMtakaMlOni raavulO 'vu' guruvaa? laghuvaa? precise interpretation to those poems from sulakshaNasAram. We can answer all the questions if we can determine what exactly are 'chaapi paliku','oodi paluku','nilipi paluku' akshramulu. If it's a matter of pronunciation only, as vAsu gAru replied, if I can read it fast and produce 'ooduDu' I can take it as guruvu :-) Even if I try hard and still fail to produce 'ooduDu', I will have to take it as laghuvu! > vAsu gAru said: > > i) there wasn't much time. so i read it so quickly that > it was like reading one word/samaasam. > > ii)whoever educates me is a guruvu. In that case, how is the statement that 'there is freedom when a dvitvAkshara starts a new word' totally incorrect? It might be a simpler representation for beginners in place of a more complex and exact rules stated in sulakshanasAra. I have some more observations to spread the confusion (and to support my statement)! I think, to validate my statement, I will have to provide usages that support the four implications of my rule. The rule is briefly said here again: > freedom in case of a letter preceding a dvitvAkshara of a new word. According to sulakshana sAra rules, freedom may be wrong. BUT, I can show instances where both guruvu and laghuvu are taken. The four implications are: 1. dvitvam with rEpha, okE samaasam: both laghuvu and guruvu can be taken. 2. dvitvam with rEpha, vEru padAlu(samaasam kAdu): both I and U can be taken 3. dvitvam without rEpha, okE samaasam: both can be taken 4. dvitvam without rEpha, vEru padAlu: both can be taken Say, the use of guru is subcase A (1A,2A,3A etc) and use of laghu is subcase B. I am giving the some uses I found in my brief search with limited resources at hand. I hope this will include the 'samaasa' issue raised by Sri Bachoti Rao and Nagulapally Srinivas. 1A. dvitvam with rEpha, okE samaasam, guruvu mADugula SatAvadhAnamlOni padyAlu. eg 'kavi vipravara' in 'gaNapatiyai' sanskRta sthOtrAlu mentioned above. 1B. dvitvam with rEpha, okE samaasam, laghuvu karuNaSrI pushpavilApam lOni oka padyam u. aayuvu galgu nAlgu gaDiyal kanipemcina tiivatalli jaa tiiyata diddi tiirtu mu; tadiiya karmmulalOna svEcCamai nooyala loogucun muriyucumdumu; aayuvu diirinamtanE haayiga kannu moosedamu aayama callani kaalivrELLapai. The word 'kaalivrELLU' is a samaasam. A telugu one. I feel. vigraha vAkyam: kaali yokka vrELLu, shashThI tatpurusha Though it's a samaasam and hence a single word (as Sri Bachoti Rao and Srinu validly corrected me), 'li' before 'vrE' is laghuvu and not guruvu. It should be guruvu according to them and for a laghuvu they can't be in a samaasam. I would like to refer to my observation in sanskrit chandas. In sanskrit samaasas, it's taken as guruvu only. But in telugu sammasas? This is one of the two cases Sri Bachoti Rao asked me fortify. 2A. dvitvam with rEpha, vEru padAlu, guruvu This is the second case Sri BSR asked me to give an example. I am still looking for one. Since mine is a tougher job, this might take time. I request you to grant me that. I assure you if I find my point in this case is wrong, I will still post it here when I find an answer. If someone can provide more poems from (and insight into them) books like sulakshanasaara, that will be great. 2B. dvitvam with rEpha, vEru padAlu, laghuvu this is not disputed. 'sahajamagu prEma' comes here. 3A. dvitvam without rEpha, okE samaasam, guruvu undisputed. 3B. dvitvam without rEpha, okE samaasam, laghuvu This is a sIsa poem (poet unknown to me) on Sarojinidevi sung by padmaSrI ghanTasAla. The poem itself might be of interest. So I am typing the whole poem. bhAratIyula kaLA prAbhava mmolikinci tIyagA pADina kOyilamma kamanIya vanga vangaDamella mUrtilO prasarincinaTTi mEl pasiDi komma svArAjya vIra vihAra rangamu lOna kOri dUkina telgu kODalamma mAnava kalyAna mangaLArati jyOti cEyetti jUpina cellelamma prAk paScimAl vistArici prEmimpa (in this line, corrections needed) pAthAlu nErpina pantulamma gI. bharata nArI pratApa prabhAva garima khanDa khanDAlu jalli vikhyAti ganna divya mUrti sarOjini dEvi vOle dIksha sUtrAna A dEvi divya suguNa pushpamula nEri, viridanDa pUrti jEsi puNya bhAratamAtanu pUja jEsi ghanata kekkuDi bhArata vanitalAra! (more than four lines are allowed.) Now, 'mangalAratijyOti' is a single samaasam. You can't break it as mangalArati and jyoti. jyOti is related to aarati. 'ti' before 'jyO' is still a laghuvu. So, the exception applies (or atleast, used) to non-repha also. 4A. dvitvam without rEpha, vEru padAlu,guruvu i think this is also pretty common. It's not disputed anyway. 4B. dvitvam without rEpha, vEru padAlu, laghuvu karuNaSrI again in the poem: gaalini gouravimtumu sugamdhamu poosi; samaaSrayimcu BRum gaalaku vimdu cEsedamu kammani tEnelu; mimmubOmTla nE traalaku ha'yigoortumu; svatamtrula mammula svaardhabuddhitO taaLumu trumpabOvakumu; talliki biDDaku vEru sEtuvE! In (third line) 'mammula svaardhabuddhitO', 'la' before 'svaa' is laghuvu. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope this summarizes what we are upto. i would like hear from others explanations for the above. Bachoti Rao garu! Thanks for your patience. It seemed to me I was making you impatient. So I asked for your email just to make sure nothing goes wrong! Here is response to your most recent mail. > I think laghuvu and guruvu are not the domains where you want to exercise > freedom because that defeats the very purpose of writing in chandas. I agree with your concern. But freedom is not unrestricted. We are discussing special circumstances. Moreover, as I was told by my gurus (who are not laghuvus :-) ), this freedom is to be exercised only by established poets. Not by beginners. I think the idea is, a great poet is anyway capable of satisfying the rule exactly. If he takes a little liberty to use a more apt word or combination, it shouldn't be taken as a limitation or mistake by him. (that's my personal belief). > Subba Rao garu! This is not fair. You are asking me to make a statement > so you can go and search for usages that contradict my statement. Rather, > it is easier to look at specific usages. You can't be serious! What are you doing to me!? I made a statement and I am made to fight to defend that against a group of mighty warriors! I asked for a fairer deal. I asked you to tell me the rule you support so that I can compare and contrast. You refused to make a general statement. fine. I am still happy you told me exactly what I have to provide. Of the two cases, you asked, I already found one. Searching indefinitely for the second one! regards, varigonda subbarao (couldn't reply quickly 'coz this mail took 2hrs to compose) (I will be back after at 2pm CST. I have to attend a class!) -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 11:56:52 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14813 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:56:35 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06444 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:56:34 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA109009791; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:56:31 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:56:31 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:56:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199702261756.AA109009791@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Is "telusaa" an `elite' group of ....? To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:56:30 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199702260606.HAA07371@ktpsp6.ktpsp> from "Sreenivas Paruchuri" at Feb 26, 97 07:06:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > > Greetings! > > Have been following the "ChandO" discussion (and also the one on BA's > _kollaayi gaTTitEnEmi_) with keen interest. Wish, had the time to throw > my hat 'also' in to the ring. > > I see more than 35 messages in the past 3-4 days on just this, purely Telugu > related, topic. My question is why its not cross-posted to SCIT also. Well, > a couple of weeks back Sri Varigonda enquired on SCIT what was wrong with > "telusa-scit" gateway. Probably it was (/is) down. I don't know. > > Thanks and Regards, > Sreenivas > Hi! I have sent a copy of scit also this time. But the problem with scit is that I find my postings only after a day or two. So, I feel for live discussions, it's not suitable. We can still send copies to SCIT. The telusa-scit address @smartcad.me.wisc.edu is non-functional I observed. Could the telusA archive page and this address be reestablished? Re: kollAyi gaTTitE nEmi The concern raised by Sri Sitaramayya is profound though we tend to dismiss the complaint. It's difficult for the sections not victimized by such poems to feel the bias of the poet as being serious. Vasu garu gave a mentally satisfying reply that we should acknowledge such biases and not blindly support the poet. We should teach next generations the mistakes of the past and present. The work from a literary perspective can still be great. But it has a limitation which must be considered. Same applies to VisvanAtha also. -vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 12:17:40 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA15478 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:17:36 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA07016 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:17:35 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA110101052; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:17:32 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:17:32 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:17:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199702261817.AA110101052@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Chandas: filler To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:17:32 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199702261741.AA108088903@cobra.cems.umn.edu> from "Subbarao Varigonda" at Feb 26, 97 11:41:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text I missed adding a line after I quoted # dhvani krama pravartita pracanDa tAnDava SSivah # from rudra vINa. I feel that 'dhvani krama' is one association (samaasa) and 'pravartita' can be separated. So, the pattern (12121212..) implies 'ma' before 'pra' is taken as guruvu. (not sure of it. I still have to search for a similar one in telugu. This is the second job I have been asked to do!) -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV Wed Feb 26 13:00:42 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA16923 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:00:32 -0600 Received: from FCRFV2.NCIFCRF.GOV (fcrfv2.NCIFCRF.GOV [129.43.51.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08332 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:00:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:02:27 -0500 From: RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV To: telusa@CS.WISC.edu Message-Id: <970226140227.20433284@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> Subject: Re: Chandas Hi, The line dhvani-krama-pravartita-prachanDa-tAnDavashshivah can be rewriteen as dhvaniH kramaH pravartitaH prachanDa-tAnDavaH shivaH. In this case, with sandhi, even though the visargaas are not there, it is buried and in pronunciation, there is always emphasis on the previous syllable (ni, ma, ta and va) and therefore they are long syllables. In the case of kaalivrELLapai, when we speak it out, I feel there is no emphasis on li. It is uttered as kaali vrELLapai. As far as the vowel R is considered, in three languages, Telugu, Oriya and Marathi, it is pronounced as ru. In other languages like Hindi and Bengali, it is pronounced as ri. But honestly, it is neither. It is always rr. In vasanta Rtuvu, it is neither vasanta rutuvu nor vasanta rituvu. But it is vasanta rrtuvu. This rr sound is similar to the rr part in guR^R^amu, but not as harsh. It is the usage and difficulty in the usage that made the vowel R sound as if it is a consonant. It is not. In fact, chaandasulu (tongue in cheek) may remember another forgotten vowel in sanskrit, namely L (not as in peLLi, but as in Lpta pronounced as lupta). lupta means without as in lupta surya. But lu here is not a consonant, but a vowel! I think in course of time, hundred or two hundred years, the vowel R will vanish from languages like Telugu. By the way longer version (deergha) of R comes only in sandhi such as pitRUNamu. Enough of rambling! Good day! Regards! - J. K. Mohana Rao From sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil Wed Feb 26 13:39:29 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA18127 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:39:24 -0600 Received: from anvil.nrl.navy.mil (anvil.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.184.16]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09480 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:39:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from [132.250.185.112] (k-sadananda.nrl.navy.mil) by anvil.nrl.navy.mil (4.1/4.7) id AA12986; Wed, 26 Feb 97 14:36:43 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:38:56 -0500 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu From: sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil (sadananda) Subject: shiva stotram by Raavana While the active discussion on chandas is going, a small digression - does any one remember the Siva stuti by Ravana - This request is on behalf of my brother-in-law, who wants to include this in the Sri Rama PaTTAbhishekam dance drama that they are develping. Can someone post the slokas. Thanks Hari Om! Sadananda From juvvadi@horizoncomp.com Wed Feb 26 14:09:54 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA18708 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:09:22 -0600 Received: from cygnus.horizoncomp.com (juvvadi@cygnus.horizoncomp.com [204.91.181.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10268 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:09:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (juvvadi@localhost) by cygnus.horizoncomp.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10914 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:03:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:03:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Ramana R. Juvvadi" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: 'R': Vowel or Consonant? In-Reply-To: <970226140227.20433284@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV wrote: > vasanta Rtuvu, it is neither vasanta rutuvu nor vasanta rituvu. But it > is vasanta rrtuvu. This rr sound is similar to the rr part in guR^R^amu, I am curious whether this is your guess or whether it is well documented elsewhere. Once I had a long talk with VishwanAtha achyuta dEva rAyalu gAru(s/o VishwanAtha satyanArAyaNa). He has been doing research on vedas. I am not necessarily convinced by all of his arguments but that is a different topic. >From what I gathered, the reason for 'R' ans '~l' being vowels has more to do with metaphysics than linguistics. I find this as the most convincing argument. Whichever way one puts it, I can't think of 'R' and 'l' being vowels. Ramana From ratnakar@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Wed Feb 26 14:23:22 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA19140 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:23:13 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10626 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:23:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from ratnakar@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA00370 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:21:47 -0600 From: ratnakar@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (Ratnakar Sonthi) Message-Id: <199702262021.OAA00370@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu> Subject: telusa-scit gateway To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:21:46 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: ratnakar@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few of the hard disks here were swapped around and it messed things up. Sorry about that. Had been away for 5 weeks. Got back only on Sunday. Had several things to do before getting down to working on telusa. The telusa-scit gateway should be working now. Please try it out. Prasad (Chodavarapu) had suggested setting up a search engine for telusa archives. He said it was a simple cgi program. Will get down to working on it in a while. In the meanwhile, remember to post to SCIT too using telusa-scit@smartcad.me.wisc.edu :-) Ratnakar. From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 14:30:59 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA19480 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:30:50 -0600 Received: from crane.cems.umn.edu (crane.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10866 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:30:49 -0600 (CST) Received: by crane.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA154159047; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:30:47 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:30:47 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:30:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199702262030.AA154159047@crane.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Chandas To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:30:47 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <970226140227.20433284@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> from "RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV" at Feb 26, 97 02:02:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > Hi, The line dhvani-krama-pravartita-prachanDa-tAnDavashshivah > can be rewriteen as dhvaniH kramaH pravartitaH prachanDa-tAnDavaH shivaH. Quite right. there are hidden visargas everywhere in the sthotram thus making it difficult to observe the effect of a dvitva. I wrote down the sthotram from audio cassette and checked the entire sthotram for chandas. I feel I haven't got two lines of it correctly since they don't fit 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 pattern. (is the pattern right?). All the stanzas except the last one fit this pattern. 1. dhananjayA utikRta pracanDa pancaSAyakE ^^^^^^^ Is it 'utIkRta' or 'utikruta' so that we can get 12 12 from this word? utikRta gives 1112. 2. imam hi nitya mukta mutta mOttamam sthavam This has 2 letters short. Could you send me corrections? > syllables. In the case of kaalivrELLapai, when we speak it out, I feel > there is no emphasis on li. It is uttered as kaali vrELLapai. > Good day! Regards! - J. K. Mohana Rao So, the point is it is that stress ('oodi palukuTa' mariyu 'otti palukuTa') that is important and not whether the words form a samaasa or not. Earlier, Sri Bachoti Rao wrote, within a samaasa, guruvu must be taken because it's a single word and when it's not a samaasa, you have to take it as laghuvu. There is another poem by karuNaSrI (pushpavilApam again) where I found laghuvu taken inside a samaasa. So, whether it's a samaasa or not is not the question. What is important is whether we can pause before the compound letter or not. If the compound letter starts a new word/dhAtu (even in a samaasa), I feel we can pause and so we can take it as laghuvu. Similarly, if needed, can I read it fast without pause and take it as guruvu saying it's a single word? poem by karuNaSrI: from http://www.ee.msstate.edu/~aravind/sanka.html/telugu/Karunasree/pushp1.html akkaTa! haayi mEmu mahishaasuru lemdaro naalgu prakkalan prakkala miida callukoni maa pasimEnulu paaDukaaLLatO drokkucu dorli - dorli - marurO judyaanane vaaDi vattalai rekkalu jaaripOn pariharimturu mammula pemTadibbapai. In the first padam, "nAlgu prakkalu" is a (dvigu)samaasam. Yet, 'lgu' preceding 'pra' is taken as laghuvu. regards, subbarao -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 14:46:36 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA20090 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:46:27 -0600 Received: from crane.cems.umn.edu (crane.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11348 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:46:27 -0600 (CST) Received: by crane.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA155209984; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:46:24 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:46:24 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:46:24 -0600 Message-Id: <199702262046.AA155209984@crane.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: shiva stotram by Raavana To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:46:24 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "sadananda" at Feb 26, 97 02:38:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > > While the active discussion on chandas is going, a small digression - does > any one remember the Siva stuti by Ravana - This request is on behalf of my > brother-in-law, who wants to include this in the Sri Rama PaTTAbhishekam > dance drama that they are develping. Can someone post the slokas. Thanks > Hari Om! > Sadananda As I wrote in my earlier mail, I noted down the sthOtra from audio cassette by listening to it some hundred times. I verified the chandas and seems okay. Still there might be some mistakes beyond my knowledge. I am giving the RTS version here. It's available in RTS and vengi X-font at my website. Some of the mistakes I found were mentioned in my previous mail. raavaNa viracitam^ SivasthOtram jaTaaTarIga lajjala pravaaha paavita sthalae kaLaebalam jalambitaam bhujanga tunga maalikaam DhamaDhDhamaDhDhamaDhDhamanninaadamaDDha marvayam cakaara canDa taanDavam tanOtunaSSivaSSivam jaTaakaTaaha sambhrama bhramannilimpa nirJarI vilOlavIci vallaree viraajamaana mUrdhanI dhagadhdhagadhdhagajjvalallalaaTa paTTa paavakae kiSOrachandraSaekharae pratipratixaNam mama dharaadharaendra nandini vilaasabandhubandhura sphuraddigantasantati pramOda maanamaanasae kRpaakaTaakshadhOraNi niruddha durdharaapadi kvaciddigambarae manO vinOdamItu vastunI jaTaa bhujanga pingaLa sphurat phaNaa maNiprabha kadamba kumkumadravatpraLipta digvadhUmukhae madaandha sindhurasphurapta guptarIyamIdurI manOvinOdamadbhutam vibhartubhUtabhartarI sahasra lOcana prabhRtya Saeshalaekha Saekharaa prasUnadhULi dhOraNi vidhUsharAnghri peeThabhU bhujanga raaja maalaya nibaddha jaaTajUTaka SSriyai ciraaya jaayataam cakOrabandhu Saekhara@h lalaaTa cattvarajjvala dhananjayasphulingaba nipeeta pancaSaayakam namannilimpa naayakam sudhaa mayUkha laekhaya@h viraajamaana Saekhara@h mahaa kapaali sampadae SirOjaTaala mastuna@h karaaLa phaala paTTikaa dhagadhdhagadhdhagajjvalaa dhananjayaa utikRta pracanDa pancaSaayakae dharaadharaendra nandini kucaagra citrapatraka prakalpanaika Silpinee trilOcanae ratirmama naveena maegha manDalee niruddha durdharasphurat kuhU niSIcinItama@h prabandha baddha kandhara@h nilimpa nirJharI dhara@h tanUtikRtti sindhura@h kaLaa nidaana bandhura@h Sriyam jagaddurandhara@h praphulla nIla pankaja prapanca kaalimaprabha@h vilambi kanTha kandali ruci prabaddha kandhara@h smaracChidam puracChidam bhavacChidam makhacChidam gajacChidaandha kacChidam tamanta kacChidam bhajae akharva sarva mangaLaa kaLaakadamba manjarI rasa prabhaava maadhuree vijRmbhaNaa madhUvratam smaraantakam puraantakam bhavaantakam makhaantakam gajaantakaandha kaantakam tamanta kaantakam bhajae jayadvadabhra vibhrama bhujanga tunga maSvasa@h vinirgamatkramasphurat karaaLa phaalavavyavaT dhimidhdhimidhdhimi dhvanan mRdanga tunga mangaLa dhvani krama pravartita pracanDa taanDavaSSiva@h triSat vicitra talpayOrbhujanga mouktikasrajO garishTha ratna lOshThayO suhRdvipaksha pakshayO triNaara vindu cakshushO prajaa mahee mahaendrayO samapravRttika@h kadaa sadaaSivam bhajaamyaham^ kadaa nilimpa nirJarI nikunja kOTa rEvasam vimukta durmatissadaa Sirastha manjalim vahan vilOlalOla lOcanO lalaama phaala lagnaka@h SivEti mantra muccaran kadaa sukhee bhavaamyaham^ imam hi nitya mukta muttamOttamam sthavam paThan smaran bruvannarO viSuddhi meeti santatam harae gurU subhakti maam suyaatinaam yathaa gatim vimOhanam hi daehinaam suSankarasya cintanam pUjaavasaana samayae daSavaktra geetam yasyambu pUjanaparam paThati pradOshae, tasya sthiraam vrata gajaendra turanga yuktaa lakshmeem sadaiva sumukheem pradadaati Sambhu@h regards, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Wed Feb 26 14:50:58 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA20283 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:50:38 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11462 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:50:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA12645 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:50:34 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA856997432; Wed, 26 Feb 97 14:49:06 CST Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 14:49:06 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701268569.AA856997432@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re[2]: Nanduri Subbarao in his own words on Yenki pATalu Sri Sreenivas Nagulapalli on 2/24/97 3:35 PM makes an interesting (funny or not so funny) observation while responding to Sri Ari Sitaramayya's post that mentioned about Mahatma Gandhi's loin cloth and his caste. [snip snip snip] "---Besides, if we start reading literally, we lose all the beauty, charm and grace of many expressions that bring liveliness to the language.---" As a physicist pretending to be still practicing, beauty, charm strangeness, flavor, etc., are simply the quantum numbers associated with some of the 'elementary' particles. As such, one must literally read them, not just read them; -- and, I mean it literally! "---Some funny or not so funny instances I recall are: 1. Women feeling they are being put down whenever someone uses "mankind" word! ---" There is a lot of historical 'baggage' associated with this word 'mankind.' First of all, hostile and malisious opinions about women and serious misogynistic writings almost tending to be lunatic prattle was not the prerogative of the ancient Sanskrit poets and the midieval Telugu poets. In the west, starting with Aristophanes, Aristotle, Theophrastus, Tertullian, Petronius, Cato the Censor, William Shakespeare, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Jonathan Swift, Chaucer, Tolstoy, Hemingway, Shaw and many many more of the decorated literary stalwarts,-- including James Thurber the humorist, (and not a good cartoonist,)have written poetry, prose, novels and essays condemning women! The most formidable organized campaign against women was conducted by the Church for over a thousand years. Saint John Chrysotom was the early ringleader! Now, man is the generic term for 'mankind.' In the sixth century, even this was questioned. A bishop at the Council of Macon argued that woman can not be included under the general description man. Ironically, some seventh century ironists excluded woman from salvation, since "Christ died to redeem man." In 1850, the English law known as Lord Brougham's Act, decreed that " words importing the masculine gender shall always include women, except where otherwise stated." This was not intended as a reparation, but only ot clear up the legal ambiguities. It was also alleged that the Council of Macon was responsible to decree that women have no souls. Ten centuries later the secular attitude was a little more cautious: "The souls of women are so small, That some believe they've none at all." The American Catholic hierarchy, until the Baltimore Catechism, taught that Eve was solely responsible for the fall of man. There were several demeaning and demonic versions of the creation of Eve by God! I would give only a few quotes from some of the famous writers. First from Bill Shakespeare, in Cymbeline. "............................Could I find out The woman's part in me! For there is no motion That tends to vice in man............( and it goes on and on ) .... I'll write against them, Detest them, curse them: yet 'tis greater skill In a true hate....." Then it's Burke: Edmund Burke says that 'a woman is but an animal not of the highest order.' Look at the heroines of Papa Hemingway. They either destroy or destroyed. Mrs. Macomber shoots her husband, Catharine Barkley is killed off in child birth, and only the sexually impotent narrator in 'The Sun also Rises,' is safe from Lady Brett a self-declared bitch who leads her three lovers to ruin. One should read Thurber's short story "The Unicorn in the garden," to understand his insidious impingements on the feminine sensibility. ( It is a very short story; I will post it later!) "---2. Men feeling they are treated "unfairly" when women are described as "fairer sex"! ---" The phrase 'fairer sex' was used by the ancients and even by some moderners, not as a hearty praise but very condescendingly. What can I say! In literature, sometimes letter of the spirit and spirit of the letter confuse common folks like me! This post is absurdly too long. I should quit. Regards. Venkateswara Rao Veluri From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 15:07:49 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20988 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:07:41 -0600 Received: from crane.cems.umn.edu (crane.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12043 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:07:40 -0600 (CST) Received: by crane.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA155971259; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:07:39 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:07:39 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:07:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199702262107.AA155971259@crane.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: aidu kavitalu 3. agni sparSa To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:07:39 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9702260917.AA01564@manu.india.hp.com> from "Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao" at Feb 26, 97 02:17:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > Let me also add that this poem is not so good as your > maTTi vaasana. I know you will take it in the right spirit. > Regards & Thanks > Vasu. true. mattivaasana appealed more touchingly than manTa tAkuTa (agni sparsa). is it because we are associated more emotionally with mother earth than with agni? vAsu garu, your allusions and explanations made me understand more from the poem. BTW, are the other poems in the series based on Apas (water) and AkAsh(ether)? We already had earth, wind and agni. regards, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From BRAO@atlas.niaid.nih.gov Wed Feb 26 15:19:24 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA21567 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:19:17 -0600 Received: from atlas.niaid.nih.gov (atlas.niaid.nih.gov [128.231.240.60]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12416 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:19:16 -0600 (CST) Received: by atlas.niaid.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC2400.CD0ECB30@atlas.niaid.nih.gov>; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:19:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Bachoti Rao To: "'telusa@cs.wisc.edu'" Subject: RE: Chandas Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:19:10 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The discussion started with gu being guruvu in sahajamagu prEma. No matter what, this gu cannot be a guruvu. I asked Suba Rao garu for examples like that because I believed there won't be any. I still feel that it is easier to look at an example (provded it is not a mistake or exception by great writers) rather than coining our own phraseology whic makes life more complicated. The distinction between samaasas and non samaasas is important because that determines how we should pronounce (not how we like to pronounce. It is not whether we want to read fast or slow). Sri Mohana Rao pointed out that the words in # dhvani krama pravartita pracanDa tAnDava SSivah # cannot be separated. It is a single samaasam an we have no choice of breaking it. > ps: iMtakee naa saMtakaMlOni raavulO 'vu' guruvaa? laghuvaa? adi laghuvE! guruvu gaari pErulO chOTu chEsukunnaa vrAlutO sakhyam marI anta prayOjanakAri kAlEkapOyindi. Similarly Du in ataDu vyApAri will not be guruvu. Mohana Rao wrote about kaali vrELLu. chEti vrELLInA antE. With all the rules either quoted or formulated, really there is no freedom to treat a letter in both ways. There is a differnce between samaasas in Sanskrit and compound words in telugu which are not actually compound. padam virigitE laghuvu laghuvE! taravAta aksharam dwitwamInA samyuktamInA. I appreciate Subba Rao for giving the interesting example of mangaLArati jyOti. Basically, this is not a standard samaasam and mangaLArati and jyOti are two words. (We can have another nice discussion about that if some disagree). So, ti here is a laghuvu. In mammula svArthabuddhitO, la can never be a guruvu because these are two words. Finally, I believe that poets have not exercised any freedom in making aletter laghuvu or guruvu. My knowledge is limited too. So I would like to see valid case where it can be both. The only possibility is probably some chitrakavitvam where the words can be read in different ways! Regards, Bachoti Sridhara Rao From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Wed Feb 26 15:34:47 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA22236 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:34:41 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12881 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:34:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA13682 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:34:39 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA857000076; Wed, 26 Feb 97 15:32:53 CST Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 15:32:53 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701268570.AA857000076@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: 'R': Vowel or Consonant? Sree Ramana in response to RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV post writes (2/26/97 2:44 PM): "---From what I gathered, the reason for 'R' ans '~l' being vowels has more to do with metaphysics than linguistics. I find this as the most convincing argument. Whichever way one puts it, I can't think of 'R' and 'l' being vowels.---" Some of us who have no inkling of metaphysics or the vEdaas, grew up learning Telugu from the 'pedda baala siksha.' And, it says 'R' (the letter we used to pronounce as arru - written as 'bu' with another kommu) and '~l' ( which we used to pronounce as 'alu' and whose wide useage by the purists in the word 'kliptamu') are vowels(acculu). _________________ Begin Side Bar: I found the following in sulakshaNasaaramu. ka. '~l' 'lu' 'R' 'lu' 'm' 'Ch' 'jh' 'n' 'T' 'd' 'dh' 'N' dalu navabaNamulunu raLalu daga nakshalun nelakoni padyamukhaMbuna niluparu satkavulu saastra nindyamu laguTan vivaraNa:(not RIT) alu alU aru arU injna cha jha iNi Ta da dha Na da na va ba ra La ksha sa anunee aksharamulu padya mukhamuna prayOgiMparaadu. End Side Bar. __________________ Now I am completely lost! Going bananas!! Actually, I am reminded of a play by BamiDipaaTi kaamESwara raavu. I think it is ka ca Ta ta pa lu. In the beginning on the play, one of the charcters comes on to the stage with a tight 'navvaru' band around his head. He declares that his head is blsting up with ideas; and that's why he has the band around it! May be I should wear a band too!! Regards. Venkateswara Rao Veluri From spamidig@ncsa.uiuc.edu Wed Feb 26 15:47:41 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA22800 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:47:32 -0600 Received: from newton.ncsa.uiuc.edu (newton.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.2.2]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13300 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:47:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from pecos.ncsa.uiuc.edu (pecos.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.3.51]) by newton.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00324 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:47:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from spamidig@localhost) by pecos.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA11973 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:47:28 -0600 (CST) From: "Pamidighantam V. Sudhakar" Message-Id: <9702261547.ZM11971@pecos.ncsa.uiuc.edu> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:47:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil (sadananda) "shiva stotram by Raavana" (Feb 26, 2:38pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: shiva stotram by Raavana Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii namaskaaram, ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/sanskritps.html#A1.0 lo ravaNuni sivatAnDava stOtram unnadi. bahuSa meekadi upayOga paDavachchu. sudhAkaru. From RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV Wed Feb 26 16:17:20 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA24049 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:17:14 -0600 Received: from FCRFV2.NCIFCRF.GOV (fcrfv2.NCIFCRF.GOV [129.43.51.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA14275 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:17:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:12:28 -0500 From: RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV To: telusa@CS.WISC.edu Message-Id: <970226161228.204378a2@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> Subject: RE: shiva stotram by Raavana Hi, There is a web site for Sanskrit documents. It is maintained by Dr Sai Krishna of Utah. There are many stotras and other books there. Any new document is updated. It is very good and very useful. Please contribute to that list, if you can. RaavaNa stotra forms a part of that. You may get .gif files or transliterated English files. Good luck! - J. K. Mohana Rao From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 16:29:36 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA24512 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:29:30 -0600 Received: from crane.cems.umn.edu (crane.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14623 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:29:29 -0600 (CST) Received: by crane.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA158516168; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:29:28 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:29:28 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:29:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199702262229.AA158516168@crane.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Chandas To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:29:28 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Bachoti Rao" at Feb 26, 97 04:19:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > The discussion started with gu being guruvu in sahajamagu prEma. > No matter what, this gu cannot be a guruvu. I asked Suba Rao garu > for examples like that because I believed there won't be any. I still > feel that it is easier to look at an example (provded it is not a > mistake > or exception by great writers) rather than coining our own > phraseology > whic makes life more complicated. true indeed. That is the reason I asked you many times to write which aspect (of the eight) of my statement you were suspecting. I never got a response to that question (till 11am today) except that you were saying I was incorrect, my statement was incorrect etc etc. You are hanging on a single word I used 'freedom' by which I intended to mean 'using laghu and guru at different situations in a similar context'. More accurate rules quoted by Sri vElUri do explain when to use what depending on pause between words. As I see, 6 out of the eight implications are acceptable to you. You do not agree that 1. non-samAsa, samyuktAkshara with rEpha -> prec letter can be taken as guru 2. non-samAsa, samyuktAkshara w/o rEpha -> prec letter can be taken as guru Your rule 'padam virigitE guruvu kAdu' is forceful here. In the first case, I have to agree I may not be able to defend easily. guruvu is extremely rare in unrelated words with rEpha. But I feel with non-rEpha, it is not so difficult. > The distinction between samaasas and non samaasas is important because > that determines how we should pronounce (not how we like to pronounce. > It is not whether we want to read fast or slow). The other 6 implications, I provided the instances. I haven't got convincing explanation for 'chEtivrELLU' or 'nAlgu prakkalu'. As you said earlier, samAsam is a single word and guruvu should be taken. (Re: kavi pravara poem). But here are words that are 'single' and yet guruvu is not taken. If both your statement 'in a samAsa, guruvu must be taken' and the above uses where laghuvu are taken are true then they imply "there is freedom whithin a samaasa". > > Sri Mohana Rao pointed out that the words in > > # dhvani krama pravartita pracanDa tAnDava SSivah # > > cannot be separated. It is a single samaasam an we have no choice of > breaking it. I don't think he said it's a single samaasa. he said there are hidden visargas. I felt it difficult to break samaasa in samskRta padyAs. All words seem to be associated. But there must be clues from the meaning. Just as a matter of curiosity, do we have a usage like 'sahajamagu prEma' in sanskrit? (ie, non-samaasa, samyuktAkshra with rEpha, laghuvu taken) > > > ps: iMtakee naa saMtakaMlOni raavulO 'vu' guruvaa? laghuvaa? > > adi laghuvE! guruvu gaari pErulO chOTu chEsukunnaa vrAlutO sakhyam You might be right here (more probability)! Taking it as laghuvu I never contradicted. But what I neagted is 'must it be laghuvu?' > marI anta prayOjanakAri kAlEkapOyindi. Similarly Du in ataDu vyApAri > will not be guruvu. This too! I will need time (uncertain how much) to find an example for non-repha, non-samasam taken as guruvu. > Mohana Rao wrote about kaali vrELLu. chEti > vrELLInA he wrote that you can take a laghuvu even inside a samaasa if you can pause. That is not in favor of what you stated earlier (samaasa=>1 word=> guruvu) > antE. With all the rules either quoted or formulated, really there is > no > freedom to treat a letter in both ways. If we go to basic level of 'sulakshaNa sAram' etc, it prescribes everything exactly based on pronunciation. So there is no freedom. Agreed. But I requested to interpret the word 'freedom' i used to be in negation to your restrictions that 'in a samAsam, it has to be guru, in a non-samAsait has to be laghu' etc. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My intention is to say that there is more freedom than what is specfied by the underlined statement. The extra (**relative**) freedom is not total freedom because ab initio phonetic rule exists and must be obeyed. > There is a differnce between > samaasas in Sanskrit and compound words in telugu which are not > actually compound. Are you referring to nA 'kAlivrELLu' or 'chEtivrELLu'!? They are samaasas. telugu padalatO samAsaalu. Could you be more specific here? > padam virigitE laghuvu laghuvE! taravAta aksharam > dwitwamInA samyuktamInA. kAlivrELLalO padam viruga lEdE! manam viripitE tappa! Isn't it different from 'sahajamagu prEma' and yet the same laghu is taken at both places? > Basically, this is not a standard samaasam and mangaLArati and > jyOti are two words. (We can have another nice discussion about that > if some disagree). So, ti here is a laghuvu. if 'dhaniH kramaH pravartitaH pracanDa pancaSAyakE' is a single samAsam, I fail to see why 'mangaLAratijyOti' isn't one! > In mammula > svArthabuddhitO, > la can never be a guruvu because these are two words. This is same as 'ataDu vyApAri' for which I still have to search. > Finally, I believe that poets have not exercised any freedom in making > a letter laghuvu or guruvu. My knowledge is limited too. So I would > like > to see valid case where it can be both. The only possibility is > probably > some chitrakavitvam where the words can be read in different ways! > > Regards, > Bachoti Sridhara Rao What made me puzzled is the vehement opposition raised against my statement when 6 cases are accounted correctly but 2 doubtfully. Your samaasa rule excluded two more uses that are valid. The previous arguments aren't so specific. Even after repeated requests, nobody wrote what exactly they felt wrong in the statement. I had to write the eight aspects of which you were really disputing four. I request you to reconsider the treatment you gave to me! regards, vari ps: I'm thick-skinned anyway! :-) -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Wed Feb 26 16:45:20 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA25164 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:45:13 -0600 Received: from hel4.arl.mil (hel4.arl.mil [128.63.37.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15128 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:45:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 17:44:57 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: shiva stotram by Raavana Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-ID: <9702261744.aa25550@HEL4.ARL.MIL> guruvu gArU - (guruvu lO annee laghuvulE! appellation-lO maTuku annee guruvulE!) Sanskrit Web site undani ceputoo, sadaru site aDrasu ivvaka pOtE elA! BTW, I tried the site given by pamiDighanTam sudhAkaru. After getting a rough frame for the page, with a couple lines of text (about the site), I waited for about fifteen minutes, and gave up. Is there any trick to it? Later I see that the address is ftp://..... I did reach the site though. Didn't manage to get anything. Ramakrishna "still looking for examples of 'R' words where the preceding laghuvu becomes a guruvu" Pillalamarri PS: BTW, mahAkavi prayOgam avutEnE cellutundi. allA-TappA kavula prayOgAlu kudaravu. PPS: On the same note, how are we supposed to know if a word has "R" or "ru" in it? When is it "vi-dhR-ta", and when "vidh-R-ta"? Any comments? From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 16:54:39 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA25361 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:54:28 -0600 Received: from crane.cems.umn.edu (crane.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15355 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:54:28 -0600 (CST) Received: by crane.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA160987666; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:54:26 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:54:26 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:54:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199702262254.AA160987666@crane.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Chandas(lief from): Chandas To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:54:26 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Bachoti Rao" at Feb 26, 97 04:19:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Hi! I am also bored with the chandas discussion! i already lost sleep yesterday in searching for examples and counter examples. For a relief, I'm sending a comical parody to Sri SrI gAri 'kEka' in mahAprasthAnam. Original by SrI SrI is also included below my signature. There is a bit of seriousness too! My eternal conflict in life! SOdhana -------- (SrI SrI gAri mahAprasthAnam lOni 'kEka' ku hAsyaanukaraNa) racana: varigonDa subbArAvu (1993) nEnokkaDinai nidraku baliyai nA gadi lOpala duppaTilO... duppaTi lOpala nAgadilO... nA gadilO duppaTilO... nE nonTarinai nidraku baliyai kannulu mUsina reppalatO... reppalu mUsina kannulatO... reppalalO kannulatO... nidraku baliyai nE nokkaDinai hRdayamu krammina maikamutO... maikamu krammina hRdayamutO... hRdayamulO maikamutO... nA kanupApala nA madilOpala kattulu teccE netturutO... netturu teccE kattulatO... kattulatO netturulO... nA gadi kAvala vIdhula lOpala kukkalu cEsE cappuDutO... cappuDu cEsE kukkalatO... kukkalatO cappuDulO... jarajara sarasara barabara guragura gurakalu peTTE gontukatO... gontuka peTTE gurakalatO... gontukalO gurakalatO... modduga cEsina niddura kougiTa baruvulu teliyani baDalikatO... baDalika teliyani baruvulatO... baruvulatO... baDalikalO... nidraku baliyai nE nonTarinai vEkuva kOreDi vEdanalO... vEdana krammina velluvalO... nA gadilO SOdhana lO... -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** Original Kavita by SrI SrI: kEka nidraku veliyai... nE nom_Tarinai... nA gadilOpala cIkaTilO! cIkaTilOpala nA gadilO! nA gadilO ... cIkaTilO ... nEnokkaDanai ... nidraku veliyai ... kannulanim_Dina kAviritO! kAviri nim_Dina kannulatO! kannulalO ... kAviritO ... nidraku veliyai ... nE nokkaDanai ... gim_Dela kappina kum_paTitO! kum_paTikappina gum_DelatO! gum_DelalO ... kum_paTitO ... nA kanugOnala, nA yedagODala, nAlugu dikkula bAkulatO ... bAkula tOTala bATalatO ... bATalalO... bAkulatO... bhagabhaga bhugabhuga bhagabhaga mam_DE nA gadi cIkaTi nAlikatO! nAluka cIlina nAgulatO! nA gadilO... nAgulatO... iravai kOrala, aravai kommula, krUra ghOra karkOTakulO? kOraki kannU, kommuki kannU, karkATaka karkOTakulO? dAruNa mAraNa dAnava bhAshalu! phErava bhairava bhIkara ghOshalu! ghOshala, bhAshala, gham_Tala mam_Tala kam_Taka kam_Thapu gaNagaNalO? ciTikela meTikela ciTapaTalO? nE nom_Tarinai... nidraku veliyai... cIkaTilOpala nA gadilO! nA gadilOpala cIkaTilO! cIkaTilO... AkaTitO... From varigond@cems.umn.edu Wed Feb 26 17:24:01 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA26063 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:23:56 -0600 Received: from crane.cems.umn.edu (crane.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA16074 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:23:56 -0600 (CST) Received: by crane.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA161949434; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:23:54 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:23:54 -0600 Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:23:54 -0600 Message-Id: <199702262323.AA161949434@crane.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: shiva stotram by Raavana To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:23:54 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9702261744.aa25550@HEL4.ARL.MIL> from "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" at Feb 26, 97 05:44:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > to it? Later I see that the address is ftp://..... I did reach the > site though. Didn't manage to get anything. I downloaded the postscript file and printed it from the above site. It is fine. ftp connection is necessary. not http. If your connection is slow, you may have to wait longer. > > Ramakrishna "still looking for examples of 'R' words where the > preceding laghuvu becomes a guruvu" Pillalamarri > PPS: On the same note, how are we supposed to know if a word has "R" or > "ru" in it? When is it "vi-dhR-ta", and when "vidh-R-ta"? Any comments? I think dictionaries are there for our rescue here. For 'akRuruDu' kind of names, we may have to go to the original text (bhAgavatam here). I don't think it's easy (for our generation?)to see the diffrence in pronunciation. -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From cjampala@dayton.net Wed Feb 26 17:37:04 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA26356 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:36:59 -0600 Received: from zen.dayton.net (zen.dayton.net [199.218.243.2]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA16399 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:36:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from orac.dayton.net (orac.dayton.net [199.218.243.1]) by zen.dayton.net (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA03932; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:39:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:37:39 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu cc: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: (Songs, Slights....) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Sitaramayya Ari wrote: > When I think of the sensitivity of Americans and our Telugus to this idea > of democratic behaviour, I find the Americans to be more sensitive. For The cultural sensitivity that Sitaramayya gaaru ascribes to Americans is a recent phenomenon. It may be less than a quarter century old. Classical American literature (even legislative language and judicial opinions) and movies abound with statements and images that are stereotypical or bigoted about race, gender, geographical origin or sexuality . Only in the last decade or two, it seems that the standards for public discourse include this 'sensitivity' (but, even this sensitivity is currently limited to only the locals and is not extended to the foreigners, who can be slighted without repercussions. My wife is still smarting about Spielberg's treatment of India in his 'Temple of Doom' movie. It is the same Spielberg who made Schindler's List and preaches racial hormony; enough of this digression). This sensitivity did not develop overnight on its own, but evolved in time. The enlightenment of the insensitive by those whose sensibilities are hurt is an important part of this evolution. Even the 'sensitivity' standards in Telugu culture are evolving. (Speaking of sensitivity, I recommend you read khaaja mohiyuddeen's puTTumacca, the lament of the Telugu - or Indian - Muslim. I think it is one of the best poetic works of the last decade). These stereotypical images reflect the state of the characters, the writer, his readership, and the general society that they are a part of at that time. In that, these works serve the purpose of giving us a snapshot, and also of understanding the work in context. For the last few days, I have been watching 'Roots' (History Channel at 8 p.m if u are interested) and last night, we were discussing the use of the 'n' word in that series. Everybody in that show uses it both blacks and whites, slaves and slaveowners. Banishing the n-word in that work would be ignoring the reality of that period in question. Another example is the recurring controversy about the language used in Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn. Every so often, there is a media story about a high school planning on removing that book from the readings list or the school library. It is clear that the author was sympathetic to one of his central characters, the runaway slave Jim. But there are several passages in that book that are considered offensive by current day standards. Do we ban this book or do we interpret it in its context? Returning to the issue of 'kollaayi gaTTitEnEmi...', I too have been seeing it as a condescension to the kOmaTi caste. The last stanza in that song says, 'kowSikuDu kshatriyuDu kaalEdaa brahma RUshi, nEDu kOmaTi biDDa kooDa brahmrshaaye'. In between the beginning and ending, there are references to brahma tEjassu and brahma vakku. There is also another basvaraaju apaaraavu song on Gandhi that begins, "pOrbandar kOmaTinTa puTTinaDOy, purushOttamuDu jagati meTTinaaDOy'. All these suggest to me that despite apaaraavu gaari great reverence for gaandheejee, he was still concerned about gaandhee's caste. The fact that these songs were so popular in their time only reflects the state of the society at that time (Another excellent book to read - to understand the state of the vaisya community in AP at that time - is nEnoo, naadESam, the autobiography of dariSi cenchayya, a great freedom fighter). regards. -- V. Chowdary Jampala From nparinand@cas.org Wed Feb 26 18:32:36 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA27328 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:32:31 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17480 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:32:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:31:56 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702261931.AA2526@cas.org> Subject: Andhra - 50 Years of India's Independence - #4 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu More on Garimella Satyanarayana - Telugu Poet - Freedom Fighter --------------------------------------------------------------- One may wonder (be surprised) why Garimella had to write such poems like the one on amRtAnjanam. It is simple. My understanding from the authentic works on Garimella is that he, who can be compared with Subrahmanya Bharati of Tamilnadu (that is what Telugu scholars say), had to literally BEG. He led a downtrodden poor life and finally died in Madras in 1952. This is an isult to the entire Telugu Community. Mother India, who was free at last, could not take care of Garimella. (From the memorandum submitted by Vavilala Gopalakrishnayya, Mahidara Ramamohana Rao, and Parakala Pattabhiramarao, 3/1/1990, Vijayawada). For writing such a popular song, "mAkoddI telladoratanam" and other songs of freedom struggle, the British Government imprisoned him for 3.5 years. As a matter of fact, on 9th of February, 1922, Braken (sp) asked Garimella to come to his office, asked him to sing his 162 line mAkoddI telladoratamu song, arrested him after he sang the song, and sent him to Kakinada. The Kakinada magistrate sentenced him to prison for 1 year. The Hindu on 5/4/1922 published that Garimella's imprisonment had been reduced to ....."Long before the conviction, he was arrested under section 108 Criminal Procedure Code and sentenced to one year by the Dist Magistrate of Coconada on 9-2-1922". When was he arrested for the second time? Sri Challa Radhakrishna Sarma mentioned the following in his "garimeLLa sAhityam" book: "Even though he was imprisoned, patriotic songs revolved in Garimella's mind. As soon as he was released, he used to sing those songs in groups. Those songs attracted people. In turn, people started singing those songs. Seeing all this, the government officers got scared of him as he was posing danger to their rule. Again he was accused as an anti-government activist. As a result he was presented before the magistrate of Kakinada. "What do say for the crime that you have allegedly committed?" asked the magistrate looking at Garimella. A gifted poet Garimella did not look for words to give an answer to the magistrate's question. That freedom fighter did not give his statement in ordinary words. He denounced the British rule and instantaneously he sang an extempore song (composed de novo): kUlipOtunnadi kUlipOtunnadi mUlamaTTamutOTi kUlipOtunnadi praButvam kUkaTi vELLatO KulipOtunnadi para praButvam ---(From Challa's Garimella Sahityam). The magistrate declared that Garimella was sentenced to 2.5 years of imprisonment. The total added upto 3.5 years of imprisonment that Garimella experienced. There is a controversy with the second time imprisonment. It was published in the Andhra Patrika that Garimella was arrested in Madras the second time as he was about to read his statement (the magistrate did not let him to do so). (Andhra Patrika 7/28/1922). Therefore, where did Garimella actually gave the statement "kUlipOtunnadi" in a song-form? Was it in Madras court or in Kakinada court? In fact, Garimella sent a message in English from the jail to people of Andhra and that was published in the Hindu paper (I presented in the very first essay of this series - from Mamidipudi Venkatarangayya gAri books) entitled "Garimella Satyanarayana's Message to the Andhras" (Hindu, 2/11/1922). Sri Madduri Subbarao presented this message in his book (telugulO jAtIyOdyama kavitvam - 1982) and Challa Radhakrishna Sarma borrowed it from Madduri's book. If Garimella was actually sentenced on the 28th of Juyl, 1922, for 5 months he probably was a trial prisoner. Probably Garimella sang his song in retaliation to the objection by the Madras magistrate not to read his statement. Or Garimella might have been sent to Madras after his arrest in Andhra to be presented in the court of law. This is a matter of further research. Garimella was an alrounder. In addition to Freedom Struggle Songs, he wrote several patriotic songs, revolutionary songs, and songs with social justice for the untouchables. He translated famous tamil books like tirukkuraL and nAlaDiyAr and famous Kannada plays like taLLikOTa into Telugu. He also wrote the famous english poems like Hearts of The Nation and Mother India. Garimella translated several English books. Above all, he established his literary mastery by publishing numerous songs, poems, and essays in Gruhalakshmi, Krushna Patrika, Bharati, Trilinga, and Andhra Prabha. Garimella's service to the Telugu Literature is outstanding. Garimella was given equal status in the field of literature that was given to Subrahmanya Bharati of Tamilnadu. But, Garimella had a terrible ending. (As mentioned by Vavilala, Mahidara, and Parakala). The one I always like among Garimella's songs is the one he wrote on Gurajada (after Gurajada's death) which was published in the Krishna Patrika (12/4/1915). Portions of it are presented below: Title: vADuka telugu ------------- garimeLLa satyanArAyaNa kRshNA patrika, 12/4/1915) svargalOkamu pOyinAvA! saragunanu kannILLu doralucu nAdu cittamu kaliyabeTTaga nAyanA! O apparAvU! ........... komDu BaTTI yambaTamcu, ka limga dESa caritra mamTU pomgi yumTivi gAni vAni ga namga BAgyamu nOcanaitivi mAru vEshamu tIsi vEstivi ramgulellanu tuDici peDitivi sahajamuna saumdaryamumdani cATi cepitivi lOkamamtaku amdamamtayu gramdha bhAshala naccunottiri, yimka yekkaDa numDavaneDi durUhalIBuvi numDakumDA tarimi vEstivi narula nOLLanu naligi vumDina nANemaina padAla lOpala ADucumDunu prakRti yamTU amdariki telipitivi gadarA? ........................ Uta padamulu sATi nItulu nOTi keppuDu vaccu mATalu gAga cEstivi nannu, kanyA Sulka munu bracurimci koDukA ........................... nIvu cEsimdi cAlunu SAstravamtulu kaLLu teracaka paThiyimcinADA? sAramellanu telusukomTivE gramdhabhAshaku nAku kOsula grAmamulu peTTEru madhyana puNyamamtA nIdi sutuDA ......................... okari nokaru kaugalistU suKamu SuBramu telisikomTU kalasi melasi carimpa BAgyamu kaligi nAkunu gramdha BAshaku vaddu vaddani kEkalEsina pedda padamula nenni krukkina mammu viDadIyamga jAlaru mamata tIrina kaugalimtala gramdha bhAshaku prANamitturu dina dinamunaku mArpu tettunu gramdha mamduna samcarimtunu tOsi vEyaku DannalArA ---garimeLLa (kRshNA patrika, Dec. 4, 15) With a few lines from his emotional "mAkoddI telladoratanamu" I would like to conclude this essay: brAhmaNA brAhmaNa pamcama - brAhmaNa bhEdapu tegulu mI kEla? mI BEdAluvaDi kAlparEla? ceDDa bOdhalaku lomgirEla? yI mAdhukarapu vRtti mariginAradiyEla? ||mAkoddI telladoratanamu|| evarenni ceppinA himdUdESavAsu lEka sOdarulE sumDi pApamamTU cATudAmuramDi ii kumTi vAdanalu gUTilO peTTamDi ||mAkoddI telladoratanamu|| In Garimella's words casteism was a disease that was draining the nation. He urged people to bury their differences. ----pAlana Further Reading: 1) garimeLLa gEyAlu : parkAla paTTAbhirAmArAv (viSAlAmdhra, 1992) 2) garimeLLa sAhityam : callA rAdhAkRshna Sarma 3) dESaBakti gEyAlu : sarOjini rEgAni & dEvulapalli rAmAnuja rAv 4) The Freedom Struggle in Andhra : Mamidipudi Venkata Rangayya ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS. _______________________________________________________________________________ ._~Y~_; 50 years of India's Independence. ' (* *) ^--\-/--^ @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+---------Celebrate 100 Years of AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY `__' {===} `__' Columbus Section /_____\ PALANA || || Chemical Abstracts Service _________N_|_|_P_______________________________________________________________ | ACS COLUMBUS HOME PAGE = http://www.cas.org/local/acscol.html | | ACS HOME PAGE = http://www.acs.org/ | | CAS HOME PAGE = http://www.cas.org | | CAS CHEM INFO SEARCH = http://stneasy.cas.org/ | |============================================================================| From vasu@india.hp.com Thu Feb 27 00:43:18 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA03373 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:43:13 -0600 Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [15.253.72.10]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA24000 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:43:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from manu.india.hp.com (manu.india.hp.com [15.10.41.218]) by palrel1.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA28591 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by manu.india.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA02083; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:15:20 +0500 From: Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao Message-Id: <9702270715.AA02083@manu.india.hp.com> Subject: Re : [Great Writers, Biases..Times] To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:15:19 IST In-Reply-To: <9701268569.AA856997432@smtpgate.anl.gov>; from "Rao Veluri" at Feb 26, 97 2:49 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] vaeloori garu replies > In the west, starting with Aristophanes, Aristotle, Theophrastus, > Tertullian, Petronius, Cato the Censor, William Shakespeare, > Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Jonathan Swift, Chaucer, > Tolstoy, Hemingway, Shaw and many many more of the > decorated literary stalwarts,-- including James Thurber > the humorist, (and not a good cartoonist,)have written > poetry, prose, novels and essays condemning women! > Unfortunately the list is longer than that. Even TS Eliot wasn't forgiven for his tangibly clear anti-semitic sentiments. Nearer home, i can even show srisri (though i am as good an admirer of srisri as any of you is) 'poeyina Congress pratishTa punjukonae deppuDu saradaapaDi maacakamma samartaaDinappuDu' In my opinion, the above is even worse because it makes cheap laughter out of somebody's physical disability. And it is nonsensical to say, in this context, srisri is great he is the only poet telugus can be proud of and all that... However the times were like that! Nobody, not even SriSri, could fully rise above the prejudices and biases of their times! Atleast not always. I also THINK it should be blamed on srisri's choosing a chhandoe meter. Without that meter, there would be a million other ways of depicting an 'impossible event'. The above also serves as an example to support arguement that chhandas restricts expression more often than it helps. -- Regards & Thanks Vasu. From RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV Thu Feb 27 07:27:11 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA06622 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:27:07 -0600 Received: from FCRFV2.NCIFCRF.GOV (fcrfv2.NCIFCRF.GOV [129.43.51.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA28712 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:27:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 8:29:38 -0500 From: RAO@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV To: telusa@CS.WISC.edu Message-Id: <970227082938.20433c9a@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV> Subject: R Hi, I was going through that excellent book to learn Sanskrit by Coulson. In it, he does state that pronounciation of R is neither ri nor ru, but in between. In fact, he gives examples of how it should sound. many of us have heard Americans here utter the word "pretty" as pRDi without sounding the vowel e. In a similar manner, they utter the word "interesting" without sounding the vowel e before and after r as intRsting. These pronounciations approximate to what I mentioned yesterday. The Sanskrit douments are available at http://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/sanskrit.html They can also be obtained via ftp. Good Morning! - J. K. Mohana Rao From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Thu Feb 27 10:37:53 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA10393 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:37:49 -0600 Received: from hel4.arl.mil (hel4.arl.mil [128.63.37.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA02607 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:37:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 11:39:30 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Re : [Great Writers, Biases..Times] Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-ID: <9702271139.aa24025@HEL4.ARL.MIL> without saying anything in any way directly touching on the issue at discussion, I would take great exception at the opnion that SrISrI's alleged insensitivity could be blamed on his choice of a chandO-meter. There might be a million ways of describing an impossible event; not necessarily ascribable to the use of chandas or the lack there of. That the chandas restricts expression is a fallacious argument. It does not, in the hands of a skilled craftsman. On the other hand, it certainly enhances the expression, if one is 'knowledgeable'. vRttamulu konni vandalu kalavu. nannaya gAri sampradAyamunu baTTi campakamAla, utpalamAla, mattEbha-SArdUlamulu, kandamu, seesamu, geetamu - ivi pradhAnamugA Andhra-bhAshA-kAvyOpayOgi chandamulugA sweekarimpabaDinavi. .... oka bhAsha koka Sakti yunDunu. oka chandassu koka Sakti yunDunu. ee renDu Saktulu kalasikonna cOTa aa chandassulO aa bhAsha rANincunu. idi bhAshA tattvamu. chandas-tattwamu. ee bhAshA-chandassula yokka paraspara samyOjana-anukUla-samucitatwamunu cUcina pUrva kavulu maharshulu. nannaya aTTi Rshi. VSN, jayanti-'59 Ramakrishna From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Thu Feb 27 11:30:57 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA11630 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:30:53 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA03894 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:30:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA26957 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:30:50 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA857071841; Thu, 27 Feb 97 11:27:01 CST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 11:27:01 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701278570.AA857071841@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: Telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: One more Stab at guruvaa - laghuvaa ! Friends: The only part of telugu mahaabhaaratamu I know almost by heart is from viraaTa parvamu; in particular where uttara kumaara and bRihannala go to get the stolen cows back. And, of course, a little bit from draupadi - keecaka dialogue too! There is a family reason for these literary inadequacies of mine. My maternal uncle (who died last December at the age of 86) used to nag me and make fun of me as uttara kumaara, since I used to write lots and lots of long letters (uttaraalu!);-- hence uttara kumaara! (And, of course, now friends call me the same for lots and lots of long talks too!!) As children, my first cousin and I were forced by my uncle to read a poem a day from viraaTa parvamu and recite it back to him by evening! A formidable punishment, in deed! In this on going, interestingly elitist guru-laghu debate, I feel exactly like uttara kumaara among the chandO stalwarts;- the same feelings he had as he approached the mighty kauravaas for the first time! Saa: bheeshma drONa kRipaadi dhanvi nikaraa bheelambu duryOdhana greeshmaaditya paTuprataapa visaraa keerNambu Sastraastra jaa lOshma sphaara cturvidhOjvalabalaa tyugrambu dagradhvajaa rcishmatvaa kalitambu sainyamidiyE jEramga saktumDanE. Some answers for the guru-laghu questions can be found above! Otherwise, ca: asadRiSaleela bolcurathikaavali meeda janamga ver"r"inE ......... etc., might shed some light! Or how about this: Saa: durvaarOdyama baahuvikrama rasaa stOka prataapa sphura dgarvaamdtha prativeeranirmathana vidyaa paaragul matpatu lgeervaaNaakRitu lEvu ripDu ninu dOrleelan vesamgiTTi gam dharvul maanamu braaNamum gonuTa tathyambemmaim geecakaa. Well! I could go on and on and on .... but,.... I know what you are going to say! Begin Side Bar: In the verse above, sairamdhri(draupadi) describes in a threatening way, to the love-lorn keecaka, how great her five hubbies are and what would happen to him if he continues to persist in nagging! Later, darupadi narrates to valala(bheema) her plight and repeats the same verse, believe me, literally the same verse!! I was shocked and surprised! tikkana did not describe the panDavaas in a diferent verse; at least a different vRittam would have been better! Is this the only repetitive verse ( makkeeki makki, in acca telugu!) in the entire telugu mahaa bhaarata or, or there any more such instances? Inquiring minds want to know! End Side Bar. Regards. vElUri veMkaTESwara rAvu vraalu. ps: I am positively certain, the 'vu' in raavu as it stands is a laghuvu! I quit being a guruvu, oh... seventeen years ago! From vissa@cortex.neuro.mssm.edu Thu Feb 27 11:36:54 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA11691 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:36:48 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04037 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:36:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA05307 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:35:22 -0600 Received: from cortex.neuro.mssm.edu (cortex.neuro.mssm.edu [146.203.5.10]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA05298 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:35:18 -0600 Received: by cortex.neuro.mssm.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA23366; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:23:46 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:38:05 -0500 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu From: vissa@cortex.neuro.mssm.edu (Prabhakar Vissavajjhala) Subject: 'svEccha - uniki' Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) svEccha - uniki (Freedom and Identity) A. ve. svEccha galgi bratuku svacchanda mavakunna bandhanamulu yanni bAdha yagunu cAvu mElu svEccha janmalO lEkunna svEccha lEka uniki tuccha mavade? A. ve. lEka yunna svEccha; lEdancu yunikiyE talacu neDala nEmi tappu galadu? uniki, svEccha landu; yunnaTTi marmamu nerigi melagu vAre; edugu vAru A. ve. anni sUtramulaku, apavAdu galadancu maruva dagune nijamu; manuju lEpuDu eTTi bandhanamulu lEnaTTi dannanu haddu lEni svEccha; anda magune? (apavAdu = Exception) A. ve. 'aksharammu' lella ati svEccha gOrucu masali yunna yeTula, 'mATa' buTTu? 'mATa' lanni tAmu, maDigaTTu konnacO 'vAkya' meTlu vaccu; vacana mandu? tE. vyAkaraNa niyatiki, mATa kramata jErpa bhAva prakaTana jEyagA 'bhAshya' moppu niyati, kramatala gOlpOyi neelgu neDala eTTi svEcchakainanu yardha mEmi galadu? tE. grahamu lanniyu, nEvELa gagana mandu kadalu cunDunu niyamita kakshya landu grahamulu diruga svEcchatO gatulu dappi jagati gati yEmi? manujula pragati yEmi? A. ve. lOka vRttamandu, leena mavvaga lEka vErugA dalacuTa verri yagunu eTTi bandha meruga naTTi yOgiyu gUDa ella janula mElu nenca valade? A. ve. cikku tolaga valayu; svEcchacE vyaktiki cikku deccu svEccha makku vagune? niyati, kramata yunTa; nyUnata gAbOdu svEccha yanna gAdu; svaira vRtti A. ve. uniki, uniki yancu yudrEka paDanEla? vyakti gatapu uniki yukta magune? vij~na terigi, hRdaya vipulata benceDu svEccha deccu yuniki svaccha mepuDu A. ve. 'prANavAyu' venta prAmukhya tunnanu 'udajani'ni galiyaga uniki pOyi 'udaka' magucu, tAnu utkRshTa mavvadE? ide prabhAkaru nabhimatamu naraya (prANavAyuvu = Oxygen; udajani = Hydrogen) A. ve. pRdhvi paina nunna 'prANavAvu' vanta 'neera' mavva bOdu; nikka meruga konta yaina gAni; kOlpOvaka uniki unnateTlu vaccu? nevani kaina A. ve. 'prANavAyu' vaina, prakRti yanduna miSra rUpa mande, melagu gAde? 'natrajani'ni galasi nayamaina 'gAligA' tanadu unike talaci, tallaDilune? (miSramu = Mixture; natrajani = Nitrogen) A. ve. jeeva rahita mayyu; jeevanAdhAramai uniki, svEccha landu yucita merigi melagu vAni kunna melakuva lEnaTTi jeevi gAde? manuja jeevi jUDa! A. ve. perugu j~nAna mella; pencagA dugdhalu spardha lekku vAye; pagalu, rEyi 'manishi' yanna 'buddhi mantuDa'nucu jeppu ardha mella nEDu vyardha mavaga (maneesha = buddhi; maneeshi = buddhi mantu Du/rAlu) A. ve. ahamu prakka beTTi; ArATa mandaka sunta yahamu citta Suddhi tODa tyAga mivvaka ghana yOgambu galgunE? eTTi vAnikaina yurvi meeda A. ve. svEccha tODa uniki svacchanda mainanu mUrkha maina svEccha muddu gAdu muppu deccu tanaku; mudamugA dorulaku ide prabhAkaru nabhimatamu naraya With regards, Prabhakar Vissavajjhala From nparinand@cas.org Thu Feb 27 11:43:08 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA11770 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:42:59 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04178 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:42:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:42:05 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702271242.AA3131@cas.org> Subject: araTikAya bajji To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu bApArAo gAru! Some time ago we talked about some nursery rhymes similar to Green Eggs and Ham. Well! There are several of those in Telugu, very close to that by Dr.Sues (sp). Gurajada, the Boss Man (as Kumar Vadaparty calls him), wrote some kids songs called miNugurulu (a part of that is presented below): araTikAya bajji minappappu sojji kalasi melasi timdAm kadhalu vidhalu vimdAm Enugu ekki manamu E vUreLadAmu? Enugu ekki manamu ElUreLadAmu! guRRam ekki manamu E vUreLadAmu? guRRam ekki manamu gumTUreLadAmu! mOTArekki manamu E vUreLadAmu? mOTArekki manamu mOTUreLadAmu! vennuni ekki manamu E vUreLadAmu? vennuni ekki manamu veyyUL cUddAmu! (miNugurulu, by Gurajada, Bharati 1930). In fact, Sri Tekumalla Kameswara Rao, collected some jAnapada songs for kids very similar to this. Of course, this was written in a the then modern era - when autos and trains came into existence. adE mana pillalaki Dr. Sues style lO ceppAlamTE, mana kavipumgavulu Emani ceptArO? I have been trying to teach my boys these rhymes - after talking to Sri Bapa Rao gAru, I thouhgt of changing (altering words) this suitable to American-Telugu kids (for learning some modern rhymes). May be a good tool to teach Telugu or even for fun. e.g. ErOplEnu ekki manamu E vUreLadAmu? vimAnamu ekki manamu viskAnisineLadAmu! gurramu ekki manamu E vUreLadAmu? hArsu ekki manamu hanTsuvilli cUddAmu! kAru ekki manamu E vUreLadAmu? TOrasu ekki manamu TolIDO pOdAmu! Something to ponder! Give some thought. Bapa Rao gAru? Are you there? I hear so much talk about "Teaching Our Kids Telugu" and "Preserving Our Language" right here in the US. Good thought and noble idea. Why waste a lot (ooops! I typed that word. Can not help it) of time (spend some time up to limit) watching .....whatever. If you are a kavi, please show your talapAgA shOkulu. My boys are lookin forward for some Telugu Rhymes with American Culture/Geography/History alongwith Telugu ditto. (meter or pseudometer or inch or FPS or CGS! We don't care. But should be clean and clear) Thanks. pAlana Disclaimer: Opinions are mine only. From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Thu Feb 27 12:00:18 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA12165 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:59:52 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04562 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:59:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA27654 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:59:47 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA857073584; Thu, 27 Feb 97 11:57:37 CST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 11:57:37 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701278570.AA857073584@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re[2]: Re : [Great Writers, Biases..Times] Sri rAmakRishNa on 2/27/97 11:39 AM uvaaca: [snip] "--- That the chandas restricts expression is a fallacious argument. It does not, in the hands of a skilled craftsman. On the other hand, it certainly enhances the expression, if one is 'knowledgeable'.---" The above argument is de ja vu to plebians like me! "--- vRttamulu konni vandalu kalavu. nannaya gAri sampradAyamunu baTTi campakamAla, utpalamAla, mattEbha-SArdUlamulu, kandamu, seesamu, geetamu - ivi pradhAnamugA Andhra-bhAshA-kAvyOpayOgi chandamulugA sweekarimpabaDinavi. .... oka bhAsha koka Sakti yunDunu. oka chandassu koka Sakti yunDunu. ee renDu Saktulu kalasikonna cOTa aa chandassulO aa bhAsha rANincunu. idi bhAshA tattvamu. chandas-tattwamu. ee bhAshA- chandassula yokka paraspara samyOjana-anukUla- samucitatwamunu cUcina pUrva kavulu maharshulu. nannaya aTTi Rshi. VSN, jayanti-'59 ---" But, then VSN has used close to 130 chandassulu in his raamayaNa kalpavRikshamu. It would be horrendous to prove his own assertions on the chadassu-bhaashaa tatwamu, and the chandassu-bhaasha Saktulu, etc. Of course, if we agree as "oneman" that VSN is not to be relegated to the status of Rishi, but only to be reckoned as an ordinary kavi! I think, there are lots of people who believe that VSN is not only a great kavi but a Rishi too!! Regards. V R Veluri From sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil Thu Feb 27 12:07:27 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA12430 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:07:19 -0600 Received: from anvil.nrl.navy.mil (anvil.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.184.16]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04711 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:07:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from [132.250.185.112] (k-sadananda.nrl.navy.mil) by anvil.nrl.navy.mil (4.1/4.7) id AA17636; Thu, 27 Feb 97 13:04:53 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:07:05 -0500 To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu From: sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil (sadananda) Subject: Re: shiva stotram by Raavana Thanks to everyone who responded to my request. I could pull out the Sanskrit Documents list and printout in devanagari. I am trying the method outlined by Prasad Chodavarapu garu to get telugu print out using Sri Subbarao Varigonda typed RIT version. Thanks again to all. Hari Om! Sadananda From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 12:20:33 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA12845 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:20:27 -0600 Received: from rainy.cems.umn.edu (rainy.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA05086 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:20:26 -0600 (CST) Received: by rainy.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA194177626; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:20:26 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:20:26 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:20:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199702271820.AA194177626@rainy.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re : [Great Writers, Biases..Times] To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:20:25 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9701278570.AA857073584@smtpgate.anl.gov> from "Rao Veluri" at Feb 27, 97 11:57:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > > > > "--- That the chandas restricts expression is a fallacious argument. > It does not, in the hands of a skilled craftsman. On the other hand, > it certainly enhances the expression, if one is 'knowledgeable'.---" > > The above argument is de ja vu to plebians like me! Alas! Times have changed. You are right chandas is restrictive now. But a thought about the old days makes me say: gI. manaku padyaala lOnanE mATa lADa Sakti galadaTa munnOka samaya mandu paluku vAkyAlu chakkani padyamaina chanda mErIti nOTiki bandhmOunu? -subbarao -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From srini@usiva.com Thu Feb 27 12:52:16 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA13726 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:52:10 -0600 Received: from gauntlet.usiva.com (uucp@gauntlet-all.usiva.com [206.67.217.2]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05959 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:52:09 -0600 (CST) Received: by gauntlet.usiva.com; id NAA21766; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:52:08 -0500 Received: from unknown(198.5.168.1) by gauntlet.usiva.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma021763; Thu, 27 Feb 97 13:52:03 -0500 Received: by usinet.usiva.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13628; Thu, 27 Feb 97 13:44:47 EST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 13:44:47 EST From: srini@usiva.com (Srini) Message-Id: <9702271844.AA13628@usinet.usiva.com> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Mention of caste in Basavaraju gAri poem on Gandhiji Sri Veluri Venkateswara Rao gaaru detailed the historical "baggage" of the words I mentioned in the earlier posting ('mankind', 'fairer sex') which I did not know earlier and is educating to me. Thank You. It reinforced my understanding that words do not mean the same thing at all times and climes. And it is important to see the context, big picture or backdrop of the writing to understand the intent of author better. Of course that is only if we _want_ to understand the author. Coming back to the source of discussion. I just think that knowing the honesty of intention of the author, taking deep offense for the mention of Gandhiji's caste in the poem "kollayi gaTTitEnEmi", and suggesting to drop such a piece from literature itself, is over-reacting. I do not justify or encourage its usage now, but in the context of its usage and the time of its writing, and most importantly against the backdrop of the author's reverance and regards to Gandhiji, the outrage to eliminate such writings is unwarranted. He wrote: >Sri Sreenivas Nagulapalli on 2/24/97 3:35 PM >makes an interesting (funny or not so funny) observation >while responding to Sri Ari Sitaramayya's post that >mentioned about Mahatma Gandhi's loin cloth and his caste. > >>"---Besides, if we start reading literally, we lose all >>the beauty, charm and grace of many expressions that bring >>liveliness to the language.---" > >As a physicist pretending to be still practicing, beauty, >charm strangeness, flavor, etc., are simply the quantum >numbers associated with some of the 'elementary' particles. >As such, one must literally read them, not just read them; > -- and, I mean it literally! The fact that beauty, charm strangeness, flavor etc., are simply the associated quantum numbers, only enhances (and never decreases) the mystery and awe of their beauty. All are just atoms, yet the wonderful combination of some result in a soft-petalled, vibrant-colored,fragrant flower while another combination yields abhorrent,stinking trash. The passage by one of the celebrated, brilliant Physicists of this century- Mr. Richard Feynman made a deep impression on me and I would like to share it in this context. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Excerpted from his book "What do you care what other people think?" ] "I have a friend who's an artist, and he sometimes takes a view which I don't agree with. He'll hold up a flower and say, "Look how beautiful it is." and I'll agree. But then he'll say, "I as an artist can see how beautiful a flower is. But you, as a scientist, take it all apart and it becomes dull." I think he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people- and to me, too, I believe. Although I might not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is, I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. But at the same time, I see much more in the flower than he sees. I can imagine the cells inside, which also have a beauty. There's beauty not just at the dimension of one centimeter; there's also beauty at a smaller dimension. There are the complicated actions of the cells, and the other processes. The fact that the colors in the flower have evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; that means insects can see the colors. That adds a question: does this aesthetic sense we have also exist in lower forms of life? There are all kinds of interesting questions that come from a knowledge of science, which only adds to the excitement and mystery and awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it substracts." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I feel I must have strayed far on this topic! Sorry! With best regards -Srinivas Nagulapalli From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Thu Feb 27 12:54:52 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA13745 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:54:47 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05996 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:54:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA29160 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:54:45 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA857076882; Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:53:14 CST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:53:14 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701278570.AA857076882@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re[4]: Re : [Great Writers, Biases..Times] Sri Varigonda Subba Rao gaaru says: [snip] "--- Alas! Times have changed. You are right chandas is restrictive now. But a thought about the old days makes me say: gI. manaku padyaala lOnanE mATa lADa Sakti galadaTa munnOka samaya mandu ---" I am not a history buff; but would certainly like to be educated about those "times" when people have conversed in chadObaddha poetry. "--- paluku vAkyAlu chakkani padyamaina chanda mErIti nOTiki bandhmOunu?---" ^^^^^^^^^^ Should'nt that be bandhamOunu? Me says: de gustibus non est disputandum. Regards. V R Veluri From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 13:26:09 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA14402 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:26:02 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06750 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:26:01 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA202771558; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:25:58 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:25:58 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:25:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199702271925.AA202771558@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Re[4]: Re : [Great Writers, Biases..Times] To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:25:58 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9701278570.AA857076882@smtpgate.anl.gov> from "Rao Veluri" at Feb 27, 97 12:53:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Namaste! > now. But a thought about the old days makes me say: > > gI. > manaku padyaala lOnanE mATa lADa > Sakti galadaTa munnOka samaya mandu ---" > > I am not a history buff; but would certainly like > to be educated about those "times" when people have > conversed in chadObaddha poetry. I know no history. That's just my imaginaary thought in reverence to the dhAra pUrkavulu had. Who knows! Had there been no change-over to vyAvahArika bhAsha from grAndhika bhAsha, we would have been reading all literature in VSN style of language and we would have missed a good deal of literature in vyaavahaarikam. In my opinion, chandas is not a bandham if we use it properly. That is use it when you can express yourself confidently and clearly. If required, adding some vacana in kaavyAs is never prohibited. When it's more apt, natural and beautiful use chandas. If there is a limitation use vacana. > chanda mErIti nOTiki bandhmOunu?---" > ^^^^^^^^^^ > Should'nt that be bandhamOunu? Sorry for the typo and thank you for the correction. That is 'bandha' only. > de gustibus non est disputandum. I am unable to decipher this supposedly Latin sentence! Could you please tarnslate it? > Regards. > > V R Veluri -subbarao -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 13:52:44 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA15175 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:52:30 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07372 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:52:28 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA204833146; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:52:26 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:52:26 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:52:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199702271952.AA204833146@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Chandas To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:52:25 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Bachoti Rao" at Feb 26, 97 04:19:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Hi! As Sri Bachoti Rao and I had some separate discussion and tried for a definitive opinion, some new things resulted. I am posting them here with his permission. There are minor additions relevant to telusA. His statements are quoted (with >). > several places. So I wonder why we are differing! I think it was because > the discussion was a little off the track. Since both of us are interested > in chandas, let us see where we misunderstood each other. yes. many extraneous things also interfered. perhaps by putting together the facts we observed, may be we can better understanding. > Your first posting: > > >Normally, the letter before a compound letter is guruvu. But, when the > >compound letter starts a new word (or word in a sandhi), you have > >the freedom to take the preceding letter as laghuvu if necessary, especially > >is the compound letter has 'rEphamu (ra-vattu)'. Use of this exception > >with other compounds is less common. I think the above statement if taken in isolation and literally will be incorrect. I guess the responses posted prior to my first response influenced the phrasing of my intention. I don't remember what exactly Sri Ramakrishna posted first (the first few mails weren't saved by me. a mistake) but it appealed more restrictive than the reality to me. I think he said that 'only for rEpha letters laghuvu is taken when the words are separate'. In order to express my experience with the poems of the kind I quoted later, I phrased that rule like that and I also acknowledged that they are my own words and the actual rule goes something like that. I invited corrections from authentic sources. I did believe in my mind that the authentic sources would not give any 'freedom' but they will prescribe what the exact criterian is. So my intention in using freedom is 'more freedom than what the earlier posts said'. In fact, it's only during this discussion I made a critical analysis of what were the implications of my statement and learnt to interpret it more meaningfully. Certainly, when posting it, i didn't have the same deal of insight into it. My statement explained two more cases not allowed by the previous criterian but it also added two more cases which are seriously doubtable. Unfortunately, I don't remember where/whether I found any poems which use these. I am helpless until I happen to find such an occurence again. More over, I should find one, not by an 'allA-tappA' poet. I can't say when or whether that will happen. Till then, I agree with you to be conservative and not use these two 'unsupported' implications. Previously, I held my vague notion of 'freedom' 'coz the exact criterian wasn't known. That vague notion includes all possible uses and so we can never find a counter example to it. The right thing to do is to find the precise rule from a reference like 'sulakshnasaara' or 'appakavIyam'. That objective of mine was underemphasized by me in the heat of the debate. I regret that thing. But I strongly emphasize that I did anticipate and welcome corrections to parts of that statement. But no one acknowledged the correct cases(6 of 8) even! Perhaps that made me forget the original objective of finding the precise criterian and attempt to defend the implications of my statement. In that sense, the discussion has been helpful to me. vElUri gAru posted some relevant poems from sulakshanasaara. Any exceptions must have been stated in the same book elsewhere. Interpreting these poems precisely in every case is also not trivial. ('oodi palukuTa' etc). I appreciate if Sri Ramakrshna can help by stating chandO experts' opinion. > What I said was that this freedom is not there. All your examples > of telugu samaasas take such letters as laghuvu, not guruvu. > Rules > for telugu and Sanskrit samaasas are different but stress is a good This is a very useful observation I feel. I observed it after analysing the sanskrit stotras. perhaps it provides a clue. I hypothesize the following. In sanskrit chandas, it's always taken as guru (even in non-samaasas). I didn't find an instance like 'sahajamagu prEma' where laghuvu is taken. (is there any?) But in telugu, we take laghuvu. So, depending on whether the words are of sanskrit or telugu, may be we can fix guru or laghu. > criterion. And that stress determines what it should be but will not > give us freedom. The same letter in the same place (like gu in sahajamagu > prEma) cannot be taken as guruvu or laghuvu to suit the poem's > chandas. I agree I misinterpreted by using that phrase 'to suit the poem's chandas'. Given an instance, a letter can never be both guru and laghu. What I meant is in two different instances having the same grammatical scenario (samyuktAkshara and samAsam) both guruvu(sanskrit) and laghuvu(telugu-kAlivrELLu) are taken. That is intended to imply that there is another criterian we are missing. > What letter should be guruvu and what should be laghuvu is a different > kind of discussion. Why a particular letter is laghuvu or guruvu can be > discussed but the point is can it be both? I feel the answer is no. Yes. the answer is no. a single letter can not be both. but in different places, in a similar situation laghu, guru are taken. > The origin of that rEpha clause is probably the words like kAlivrELLu > where they were looking for an explanation of li being laghuvu. My point > is it can only be laghuvu but never a guruvu. In sanskrit samAsaas they are taken as guruvu. When we adopt a sanskrit word and telugize it, isn't it an ambiguous situation? (Just another thought. If there are 'sankara' ie hybrid padAlu?) > As I said, my knowledge is limited but what I have is an old interest > sprouting up now and then. I can be wrong too. Me too! > > Regards, > > Sridhara Rao -subbarao -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From nparinand@cas.org Thu Feb 27 14:10:54 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA15663 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:10:49 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07901 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:10:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA06667 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:09:23 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA06658 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:09:20 -0600 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:10:42 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702271510.AA5621@cas.org> Subject: yaDArilO ************for a change To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) dESa caritralu ************** E dESa caritra coocina' E munnadi garvaka'raNam? naraja'ti caritra samastam parapiiDana para'yaNatvam. naraja'ti caritra samastam paraspara'haraNOdyOgam naraja'ti caritra samastam raNarakta prava'ha siktam. biiBatsarasa pradha'nam, piSa'cagaNa samava'ka'ram! naraja'ti caritra samastam daridrulanu ka'lcukutinaDam. balavamtulu durbala ja'tini ba'nisalanu ka'vimca'ru: narahamtalu dhara'dhipatulai caritramuna prasidhdhi kekkiri. raNaramgam ka'nicOTu Boo sthalamamta' vedakina dorakadu: gatamamta' taDise raktamuna, ka'kumTE kanniLulatO. calla'rina samsa'ra'loo, maraNimcina jana samdOham, asaha'yula ha'ha'ka'ram caritralO moolugutunnavi. vaishamyam, sva'rdhaparatvam, kouTilyam, iirshyalu, spardhalu, ma'yalatO ma'rupErlatO caritragati niroopimcinavi. jemGij Ka'n, ta'marlEnoo, na'dirsha', Gajnii, GOrii, sikidarO evaDaitEnEm? okokkaDoo maha'hamtakuDu. <******************* vaikingulu, SvEtahooNuloo, sidhiyanloo, pa'raSiikuloo, pimDa'rulu, thaggulu kaTTiri ka'la'niki kattula vamtena. a~na'napu TamdhayugamlO, a'kalilO, a'vESamalO--- teliyani E tiivraSaktulO naDipistE naDici manushyulu---- amta' tama prayOjakatvam, ta'mE Buvi kadhina'dhulamani, stha'pimcina sa'mra'jya'loo, nirmimcina krutrima caTTa'l--- <***************** itarEtara Saktulu lEstE paDipOyenu pEka mEDalai! parasparam samGarshimcina SaktulalO caritra puTTenu. ciraka'lam jarigina mOsam, balavamtula dourjanya'loo, dhanavamtula panna'ga'loo imka'na'! ikapai cellavu. oka vyaktini marokka vyaktii, oka ja'tini vEroka ja'tii, piiDimcE sa'Gika dharmam imka'na'? ikapai sa'gadu. ciina'lO riksha'va'la', cek dESapu ganipanimanishii, airla'mDuna ODa kaLa'sii, aNaga'rina a'rtulamdaroo--- ha'TenTa'T, jooloo, niigrO, KamDamtara na'na' ja'tulu ca'ritraka yadha'rdhatatvam ca'Tista' roka gomtukatO. E yudhdham emduku jarigeno? E ra'jyam enna'LLumdO? ta'riiKulu, dasta'vEjulu ivi ka'vOy caritra kardham. ii ra'Nii prEma pura'Nam, a' muTTaDikaina Karculoo, matalabuloo, kaiPiiyatuloo, ivi ka'vOy caritrasa'ram. itiha'sapu ciikaTikONam aTTaDuguna paDi ka'npimcani kadhalannii ka'va'lippuDu! da'cEstE da'gani satyam. <*************** nailunadii na'garikatalO sa'ma'nyuni jiivanameTTidi? ta'jamahal nirma'Na'niki ra'LLettina kooliilevvaru? <*************** sa'mra'jyapu damDaya'tralO sa'ma'nyula sa'hasameTTidi? praBuvekkina pallaki ka'dOy, adi mOsina bOyii levvaru? <**************** takshaSila', pa'Taliiputram, madhyadhara' samudratiiram, ha'rappa', mohEmjOda'rO, krO-ma'nya'n guha'muKa'llO-- ca'ritraka viBa'tasamdhyala ma'navakadha vika'sameTTidi? E dESam E ka'lamlO sa'dhimcina dE parama'rdham? <**************** E Silpam? E sa'hityam? E Sa'stram? E ga'mdharvam? E velgula kii prastha'namm? E svapnam? E digvijayam? -----SRIRANGAM SRINIVASARAO (MAHAPRASTHANAM) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 14:55:11 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA16558 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:55:04 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08901 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:55:03 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA209416900; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:55:00 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:55:00 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:55:00 -0600 Message-Id: <199702272055.AA209416900@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Chandas: another problem! To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu (telusa) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:55:00 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text hello! This is continuation of the discussion. Double angles are mine (>>)! > >In sanskrit chandas, it's always taken as guru (even in non-samaasas). > >I didn't find an instance like 'sahajamagu prEma' where laghuvu is taken. > >(is there any?) But in telugu, we take laghuvu. So, depending on whether > >the words are of sanskrit or telugu, may be we can fix guru or laghu. That's my hypothesis only, I said. (It is safe if this tage is maintained i feel!) > One or two things. In telugu what we have is only Sanskrit words > or samaasas. In > > kavipravaruDu (a single word, meaning kavulalO pravaruDu) - vi is guruvu. > > In kavi pravaruDu (a sentence, meaning kavi is pravara) - vi is laghuvu. > > The nonsammasa situation in Sanskrit will be totally different because > the sentence construction is different. >> In sanskrit samAsaas they are taken as guruvu. When we adopt a sanskrit >> word and telugize it, isn't it an ambiguous situation? (Just another thought. >> If there are 'sankara' ie hybrid padAlu?) > > Once telugized, it is not Sanskrit anymore. So it is still unambiguous > like the example above. > > Regards, > > Sridhara Rao Well! There ARE tricky situations. here is one (my creation)! See this tETagIti. "E kavi pravarunDanu EdO cEya anni vargamu lEnduku tannu konuTa?" konni vEragu kEsulu unna vOyi. icaTa 'vi' guruvO, laghuvO eddi younu? I may mean "edO kavi pravaruDu anE padam mundu aksharAnni laghuvO, guruvO cEsADani manamantA pOrADaDam enduku?" With this interpretation, kavi and pravaruDu are different words and 'vi' is laghuvu. So the poem violates chandas of gIti. But, what if I say it can be read as "Eka vipra varuni Edo cEya" meaning, "oka brAhmADiki eDO cEsArani, anni vargAlu koTTu kODam enduku?" in a totally different context. So, 'vi' becomes guru here and the poem, a valid gIti? So, depending on *meaning* and *context*, a single word CAN become both guru and laghu! Hard and fast rules (samyukta, samaasa, rEpha do not include such situations). This is essentially, exploring the hidden freedom in the rules! Please do not link this message with caste issues! :-) regards, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From nparinand@cas.org Thu Feb 27 15:10:37 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA16873 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:10:23 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09270 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:10:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:09:50 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702271609.AA6776@cas.org> Subject: Ganesh Stotrams To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Does any one know the Ganesh Stotram rendered By KumaraSwamy? ** > (==) > (====) > (======) > <| 0 0 |> > | | > /---\-( )-/---\ > / ( ) \ > |____| ( ) | | > /||||\ () | .. | > | | . ----oooo > \--/\__________\||||/ > /-----/ \ \-----\ > =---| \ | |---= > / \_______ \__/_________/ \ > \____________\ /________________/ > \ \ > ^^^^^ From nparinand@cas.org Thu Feb 27 15:14:55 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA16961 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:14:50 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09391 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:14:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA07079 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:13:24 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA07070 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:13:20 -0600 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:14:40 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702271614.AA6859@cas.org> Subject: ANDHRA - 50 Years of India' Independence -#5 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) svargIya Balijepalli Lakshmikanta Kavi -------------------------------------- (1881 - 1953) telugu dESamulO satya hariscandra - modalaina nATakAlu vrAsi, svayamgA natakuDai praKyAti gAncina kavi Balijepalli Laksmikantam. dESa svAtantryOdyamamu koraku cerasAlaku veLLina dESaBaktuDu gooDa. A rOjulalO Iyana anEka saBalalO prasamgincina sandarBamlO cadivina padyAlalO okaTi idi. I padyAnni AnADu BArata svAtantrya prabOdhAniki yErpATu cEsina anni saBalalOnu caduvaDam jarigEdi. GANDHI YUGAMU (gandhI yugamu) --------------- *************** tari gandhIyuga mEgudence, nika nEtadBAratIya svarA jyaradham bAtani sAradhitvamuna vE sAgimpuDancun, jagat guruDEgen divi lOkamAnyu Dave! udGOShince tooryadhvanul uru taddivya radhambu lAgutaku ranDO BAratIya prajal. -by Svargiya Balijepalli Laksmikantam Kavigaru From Desam Pilupu Editors: Sarojini Regani and Devulapalli Ramanujarao ******************************************************************************* pAlana Disclaimer: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS. ******************************************************************************* From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 15:21:40 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA17114 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:21:35 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09549 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:21:34 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA211208492; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:21:32 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:21:32 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:21:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199702272121.AA211208492@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Problem (isolated for emphasis) To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu (telusa) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:21:32 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text There ARE tricky situations. here is one (my creation)! See this tETagIti. "E kavi pravarunDanu EdO cEya anni vargamu lEnduku tannu konuTa?" konni vEragu kEsulu unna vOyi. icaTa 'vi' guruvO, laghuvO eddi younu? I may mean "edO kavi pravaruDu anE padam mundu aksharAnni laghuvO, guruvO cEsADani manamantA pOrADaDam enduku?" With this interpretation, kavi and pravaruDu are different words and 'vi' is laghuvu. So the poem violates chandas of gIti. But, what if I say it can be read as "Eka vipra varuni Edo cEya" meaning, "oka brAhmADiki eDO cEsArani, anni vargAlu koTTu kODam enduku?" in a totally different context. So, 'vi' becomes guru here and the poem, a valid gIti? So, depending on *meaning* and *context*, a single word CAN become both guru and laghu! Hard and fast rules (samyukta, samaasa, rEpha are not deterministic in such situations). This is essentially, exploring the hidden freedom in the rules! What is chitra kavitvam BTW? I have no idea! regards, subbarao -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From nparinand@cas.org Thu Feb 27 15:28:24 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA17258 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:28:19 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09738 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:28:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA07197 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:26:52 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA07188 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:26:49 -0600 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:28:11 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702271628.AA7050@cas.org> Subject: ANDHRA - 50 Years of India' Independence - #6 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Sri Rayaprolu subbarao (1892) -------------------------------- mana dESamlO vaccina anni jAtIyOdyamAlanu tana kavitvamulO pratibimbimpajEsina srI rAyaprOlu subbArau AdhunikAndhra kavitvAniki mArgadarSiaina mahAkavi. Iyana kavitvam dESIyula hrudayAlanu kalacivEsi, vArini praBOdincinadi. janmaBoomilO Iyana jAtIyABimAnamu prati akSharamlO kanipistundi. telugudESa soundaryAnni, telugu BASha mAdhuryAnni Iyana kavitvamlOni pratipAdamlOnu manamu cooDavaccunu. janmaBoomi ************ yE dESa mEginA, yendugAliDina yE pITha mekkinA, yeva redu raina pogaDarA, nI talli Boomi BAratini niluparA, nI jAti ninDu garvammu lEdurA iTuvanTi BoodEvi yendu lErurA manavanTi pouru linkendu- yE poorvapuNyamO, yE yOgabalamo, janiincinADa vIsvargalOkamuna yE mancipoovulan brEmincinAvo ninu mOce, nI talli kanakagarBamuna sooryuni veluturu sOkunandAka ODalajenDAlu ADunandAka naruDu prANAlatO naDacunandAka andAka gala I yanantaBootalini manaBoomi vanTi kammani BoomilEdu- tama tapassulu RuShul dhArabOyanga canDavIryamu Sooracandrularpimpa, rAgadugdhamu BaktarAju lIyanga BAvasootramu kaviBandhavu lalla, dikkula kegadannu tEjambu veluga jagamula noogincu magatanambegaya, rAlu poovulu sEyu rAgAlu sAga soundarya megabOyu sAhitya moppa- veligina dI divya viSvambu putra dIpince nI puNyadESambu putra; avamAna mElarA, anumAna mEla BarataputruDa nancu BaktitO baluka- ---rAyaprOlu subbArAu from: deSam pilupu Editors: Sarojini Regani and Devulapalli Ramanujarao **************************************************************************** Paranandi Lakshmi Narasimham CAS Columbus OH 43202 DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS. **************************************************************************** From srini@usiva.com Thu Feb 27 15:36:24 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA17485 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:36:17 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09904 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:36:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA07274 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:34:50 -0600 Received: from gauntlet.usiva.com (gauntlet-all.usiva.com [206.67.217.2]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA07263 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:34:48 -0600 Received: by gauntlet.usiva.com; id QAA03889; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:36:12 -0500 Received: from unknown(198.5.168.1) by gauntlet.usiva.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma003881; Thu, 27 Feb 97 16:36:04 -0500 Received: by usinet.usiva.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14352; Thu, 27 Feb 97 16:28:47 EST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 16:28:47 EST From: srini@usiva.com (Srini) Message-Id: <9702272128.AA14352@usinet.usiva.com> To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Subject: Re: ANDHRA - 50 Years of India' Independence -#5 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Thanks for posting that wonderful poem. Can any one recall or help me in finding one famous dESaBakti gEyam which used to be aired by AIR -Hyderabad frequently and which goes like.. "callagaa bratikitE, gaandhI yugam maniSi kaDupu nimDaa tinTe gaandhI jagam.." Thanks -Srinivas Nagulapalli From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 15:43:44 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA17662 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:43:39 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10092 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:43:39 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA212839817; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:43:37 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:43:37 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:43:37 -0600 Message-Id: <199702272143.AA212839817@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Problem (isolated for emphasis) To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:43:37 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199702272121.AA211208492@cobra.cems.umn.edu> from "Subbarao Varigonda" at Feb 27, 97 03:21:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > > There ARE tricky situations. here is one (my creation)! > See this tETagIti. > > "E kavi pravarunDanu EdO cEya > anni vargamu lEnduku tannu konuTa?" > konni vEragu kEsulu unna vOyi. > icaTa 'vi' guruvO, laghuvO eddi younu? Sorry again! Last padam needs a small correction. Please read it as "icaTa 'vi' guruvu laghuvu landeddi younu?" (this is an ASu poem. In the joy of getting a SlEsha, I paid less attention to the last line, which is just a formal completion of the poem.) regards, subbarao -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From nparinand@cas.org Thu Feb 27 15:50:32 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA17829 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:50:25 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10296 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:50:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA07433 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:48:58 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA07424 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:48:54 -0600 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:50:05 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702271650.AA7454@cas.org> Subject: telugu kavulu - DBG Tilak by Madhav Machavaram - Repost To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) To nurture TELUGU Language! ------------------------------ Article 28374 of soc.culture.indian.telugu: Path: chemabs!odin.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!gumby!wmich-news!usenet >From: MACHAVARAM MADHAV <99machav> Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.telugu Subject: Telugu kavulu/D.B.G.Tilak#1 Date: 1 Dec 1995 22:51:42 GMT Organization: Western Michigan University -------------------------------------------------------------- Telugu abhimAnulaku nA namaskArAlu! Few days ago I have posted a fore runner announcing the series of articles I decided to post on telugu kavulu. In fact, the hidden reason behind doing that is to observe the responce from the like minded people. As Kavi KAlidAs cried to KAli maatha "Arasikaaya kavithva nivEdanam namah sirasi maalikha, maalikha, maalikhA". Telugu lo cheppaalante" kavithvaanni aanandinchalEni vaallaku kavithvaanni vinipinche kharmanu naa nuduta raayaddu, raayaddu, rayaddu" ani. But what a responce!! Mee aaseessulatho nEnu yee mision ni thappaka neravErusthaananna nammakaanni naakichchaaru. Kruthagnunni. Naa yee mundumaata mimmalni baadhistE nannu kshaminchandi. Yenduko, yee okka maata cheppaalanipinchindi. ********************************************************************* DEvarakonda Baalagangadhara Tilak (1921-1966) Kalala pattukuchchulu dharinchi kavithaamrutha paanam chEsina nithya yowwanudu Adrushtaadhvam samakoorinaa, agaadha baadhaa paadah patangaala aakrandanalni aalakinchina vaadu... kavithaamruthaaniki, jeevana vaasthavikathala haalaahalaanni jOdinchi, koththa tonic thayaaru chEsina saahithee bhishak palukarincha vachchaadee putalloki, athani pEru nava kavithaa baala gangaadhara Tilak ****** In the modern poetic era of telugu i.e., during SriSri's time, only three poets acheived a well reputed status in literary circles, even before their poems were published as a volume. They are Tilak, Srisri and Ajanthaa. Every poem written by Srisri has resonated in the hearts of telugites. The lyrical meter that accompanied his poems and the electric charge that is associated with his emotional expressions.(lyrical meter=-gEya chhandassu). When you read Srisri,the first thing you observe is the fact that you can not read his poetry without assigning a rhythm to it. If this is what made Srisri, the rest two got their fame by their style and the delicacy of expression. In fact, Ajanthaa wrote only 10 or 12 poems. Even with such a small number of poems, this great poet established his own style and trend. Tilak wrote a lot more, and established his style. Tilak is a romanticist(i.e.,bhaava kavi). Thousands of poets may express the same emotion through their poems. But the style(telugulo shyli) of expression is the factor which makes a poet great or mundane. At the same time, the content of the poem also plays an equal and important role. Tilak is one such poet who excelled in both content and style of expression. To make this more clear, try to see why we give the supreme status to dEvulapalli krishnashaastry in prEma kavithvam. Tilak is one of the pillars for the uprise and establishment of prosaic poetry (vachana kavithvam) in modern telugu poetry. Mainly due to the many a intricacies he expressed in his poetry, this style of poetry was also influential on most of the fans of traditional poetry. Today, our telugu poetry mainly follows two parallel trends. One, is a style close to the traditional, nvertheless modern, and is influenced by the inclusion of sanskrit or english words, thus expressing the content in a poem or prosaic poem. The other, which effectively touches people, by the usage of words and expressions which are very much part of conversational telugu. Gurajaada, Raayaprolu, gidugu are some who belong to the category. Kundurthi, in his fore word to Tilak's posthumous publication of `Amrutham kuricina raathri'(1971 saahithya Academy winner) opines that- for the most part, a poet's inability to separate himself from the literary language(kaavya baasha) distanced populace from the poetry. This is because of the poet's imaginary higher status than a common man, which leads poet to choose a language that is in a higher standard than the common language. You will understand this when we go through some of tilak's poems. Since some poems of tilak indicate the same inability in tilak at certain times. Well, it might be true! But personally I feel as long as the usage of higher language or common language, is entirely justified by communicating the content effectively to the reader, the nature of the language would be of secondary importance. When you established a style of expression that is unique, you have to compromise on the choice of the language or in some instances I observed that such mixture of kaavya bhaasha and saamaanya bhhasha is what made a poem much touching and sweet. You will see what I mean when you read Aartha geetham. Ika payaniddaam randi! Tilak prapancham loki(mana prapancham loki!) 1. Naa Kavithvam (1941) Naa kavithvam, kaadoka thathvam Mari kaadu meeranE manasthathvam Kaadu dhanika vaadam, saamya vaadam Kaadayyaa ayomayam, jaraamayam Gaaju kerataala vennela samudraloo Zaazi puvvula aththaru deepaaloo Manthra lokapu mani sthambhaaloo Naa kavithaa chandana shaalaa sundara chithra vichithraalu Agaadha baadhaa paathah pathangaaaloo Dharma veerula krutha raktha naalaaloo Thyaagashakti prEma rakti shaanthi sookti Naa kalaa karavaala dhagadhdhaga ravaalu Naa aksharaalu kanneeti jadulalO thadisE dayaapaaraavathaalu Naa aksharaalu prajaashakthulavahimchE eyraavathaalu Naa aksharaalu vennelalO aadukonE andamyna aadapillalu. I haven't seen any other poet who could compare his poetry as eloquently! Another thing I admire in Tilak is his firm stance of avoiding commitment to any "ism". He asserted that he is an emotionalist. And at the same time, he accepted the influence of his contemporaries on him. Read this! Naa Kavithvamlo nEnu dorukuthaanu (idi asampoornam) prabandhaaloo tadgata varnanaloo chaduvukuntoo allaantivE raasthoo koodaa yEdO thrupthi aanandamoo pondaleka, inkaa yEdO naaku teleenidEdo vundanukunE baalyamlo okka munimaapu vEla maa voollO oka kadamba vruksha chaayalO modati saarigaa dEvula palli krishanshaastrygaaru thama vUrvashee pravaasam lOnchi vivaraalee vibhaavaree vElaashaalala nee masalu charana manjeeramu gusugusalO anna gEyam vinnappudu chatukkuna prabandhaala balavanthapu varnanaloo bigusukupOyina bhaashaa sareeraaloo, maa voori roadla meedi dummu anne maayamayi poyi nEnu naa lOnchi kadali pOyi zaali zaaligaa gaalilO chiru cheekatilO nakshathraala chiru kaanthilO kalasi poyi yedo yedo ayipOyina kroththa chythanyam lo aa raathranthaa nidrapOledu. Aa tharvaatha konni naallalku oka palletoori polimEralO nanu nilabetti oka viplava yuvakudu srisri kavithaa O kavithaa thana gambheera kanTam thO vinipinchinappudu laksha jalapaathaalapaataloo, kOti nakshathraala maatalatho paatoo raajyaaloo synyaaloo viplavaaloo prajaloo sathaabdaaloo naa kallamundu girruna tirigi nEnu chythanyapu marO anchu meeda nilichaanu .... And regaarding his independece towards following an ism Bhaaratha dEshaanni kaadanalEnu, russia dEshaani kolavalEnu nijam yekkadO akkada naa praanam vundi, hrudayam yekkado akkada udayam vundi puli champina lEdi neththuru alumukOlEnu khadgamrugOdagra viraavam aalakinchalEnu jagadhdhaathri! nee kumarulamyna mEmu thathvaala pEra viplavaala PEra okari nokaram hatha maarchukOlEmu .... VivEkam lEni aavEsham vipathkaramavuthundi samyamanam lEni sowkhyam vishaada kaarana mavuthundi ... Karuna lEni kavi vaakku sankuchitha mavuthundi. ---- Tilak was a multifarious poet. He could write on any emotion. And he could write in a way where no emotion would hug you as pure and naked as his would. only tilak could write Aartha geetham and praarthana. His poetry engulfed almost all emotions of human being and crossed the geographical and political boundaries. Aartha geetham(excerpts)(1956) Naa dEshaaanni goorchi paadalEnu, nee aadEshaanni manninchalEnu yee vipanchikaku shruthi kalapalEnu yee rOju naaku vishaada smruthi, vidhi thamassulu moosina divaandharuthi naa yedada mrOdyna oka disthithi..... nEnu nEdu kanneerugaa karigina geethikanu, siggutho rendugaa cheelina veduru bongunu, mantalalO antharaanthara dagdhamyna boodidanu..... yee roju nEnu choosinadEmi? vidhi inni kaththulanu doosinadEmi? jaagruti hEtu vaadarala dudhiramEmi? Nenu choosaanu nijamgaa aakalithO allaadi marrichettu kinda maraninchina musali vaanni; Nenu choosaanu nijamgaa neerandhra varshaana vanthena kinda nindu choollalu prasavinchi moorchillina drushyaanni; nEnu choosaanu nijamgaa thalli lEka thandri lEka, munjEtula kanulu tuduchukuntoo, muriki kaalva pakkanE nidrinchina moodElla pasi baalunni; Nenu choosaanu nijamgaa, pillalaku ganji kaachiposi, thaanu niraahaarudy rudhdha baashpaakulitha nayanudy, office ku vcachchina vrudhdhuni pune veeranna ni; nEnu choosaanu nijamgaa, kshayagrastha bhaarya ika bathakadani doctor cheppinapudu, prachanda vaathoola hatha neepashaakha vale, gaja gaja vaniki pOyina araktha ashaktha gumastaa ni, aidaarugu pillalu galavaanni; nEnu choosaanu nijamgaa, moortheebhavat dynyaanni, hynyaanni kshubhithaashru kallola neeradhulni, gachchat shavaakaara vikaarulni idi yE naagarikataku phalashruti? Ye vijnaana prakarshaku prakruthi? yE budhdha dEvudi janmabhoomiki garva smruthi? ika nannu nirbandhinchaku nEstam, yee raathri nEnu paadalEnu; yee kruthrima vEshaanni abhinayimpalEnu, maanavatha lEni lokaanni stutimpalEnu .... okka nirupEda vunnantha varaku, okka malinaashrubindu voriginantha varaku okka prEgu aakali kanalinantha varaku okka shuska sthanya sannidhini kshudhaarthi nEdchu paapa unnantha varaku okka talli veeravaakrOsha ravamu vinnantha varaku okka kshatha duhkhitha hrudaya mooradillanantha varaku naaku shaanti kalugadinks nEstam, nEnu nigarvi nynaanu... yee gunde goodupatlu ekkadOkadalinavi, yee kanulu varadaly paarinavi yee kalalu kaagithapu pElikaly raalinavi yee aarthi yE sowdhaantharaalaku payanimpagaladu? yE raajakeeya veththa gundelanu sprushimpagaladu?.... yE bhagavanthuniki nivEdinchu konagaladu....? the lingering shadows of devastations caused by wwII and other international wars made a heart touching re appearence in tilak's poems such as "yudhdhamlO rEvu pattanam, tulan, synikudi navvu etc. On the other hand his patriotism towards the India during the wars with china and pakistan are evident in poems like Ammaa, naanna ekkadiki vellaadu? and few others. Here I present an excerpt from Ammaa, Naanna ekkadiki.... ammaa, naanna ekkadiki vellaadu? inkaa raadEm? ani adigaadu naalugElla pillavaadu marOsaari- alavOkagaa, vaadi thala nimuruthoo aame alaagE aashatO vinOndi radiolO vaarthalu- Aame kallallo vimaanaala rekkalu kadalina needalu aame gundello mara phirangulu pElina jaadalu.... ..kashmir sarihaddullo pogalamadhya kaalooni nilchunna synikudu aame kalla mundu nilichaadu. aame kalavalapadindi-nittorchindipiata sarichEsukundi anthalO mrudu garva rEkha aame pedaala chirunavvuthO kalasi pOindi... .. aame rOjU vasthundi parku loki vaarthala kOsam allagE tellani cheera kattukoni yerrani bottu pettukuni nallani vaaljedalO tellani sanazaajulu turumukoni... ... jaathiki mathaavEsham podigithE kOthi avuthundi pakisthan china la madhya mythri, paamoo thOdEloo kalasinattu idi rendu dEshaala madhya yudhdhamE kaadu... prapancha bhavithavyaaniki pradhaanamyna viluvalni kaapaadE prayathnam idi... ....shathruvula taankulu vimaanaalu yenno koolipOyaayi saahasOpEthamyna bhaaratha synya tharangam lahore sarihaddula meeda viruchuku padindi nirnidra haryakshamy jaathi nilabadi garjinchindi .... lakshalladi agnaatha synikula kaabaalagOpaalam kruthagnathaanjali samarpinchindi. aame aarOju koodaa kodukuthO parkuki vachchindi alaagE thellacheera kattukundigaani yerrani bottulEdu... ..aame sOga kannulalO vaan kurisi velisina aakaasham sphurinchindi aame cheetiki maatiki adirE pedavini munipanta nokkuthOndi akkada cherina gumpulu `jai hind' anna ninaadam chEsaaru ammaa, naanna.... ani aduguthunna kumaarunni akkuna chErchukuni aame kooda rudhdha kanTam thO jai hind ani mellagaa palikindi Aa maata swargamlO oka veeruniki haayigaa, theeyagaa vinapadindi In my next post we look at tilak from some other moods. If you need the meanings of some words please let me know. I will clarify as much as possible. Hope you enjoy my first part on tilak. I will try to give you the jist of this great poet as comprehensively as possible. See you all in the next article telugu kavulu/d.b.g.tilak#2 ************************************************************************** chinnappudu maa naanna type nErchukO antE vinananduku, rendu choopudu vEllathO type chEsE valla sangham lO kalisi pOyaanu. Andu vallanE ika aapavalasi vochchindi. PLEASE POST YOUR VIEWS AND SUGGESTIONS EITHER TO ME OR TO THE NET. I WILL TRY TO MAKE THIS A PLEASANT TRIP IN TO TELUGU POETRY. SOON YOU WILL ALSO ENJOY COMPLETE LYRICS OF SADAASHIVA BRAHMENDA KEERTHANALU(antE yentO theliyani mithrulaki> pibarE raamarasam series of lyrics) ika selavaa mari madhav 99machav@lab.cc.wmich.edu madhav.machavaram@wmich.edu -------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions are mine only From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 16:49:36 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA19005 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:49:27 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11632 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:49:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA07940 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:48:00 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA07931 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:47:57 -0600 Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA216593759; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:49:19 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:49:19 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:49:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199702272249.AA216593759@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: 'svEccha - uniki' To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:49:18 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Prabhakar Vissavajjhala" at Feb 27, 97 12:38:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) hi! Independently taken, the poems are a good reading. But I couldn't draw a coherent conclusion about svEcCha-uniki after I read the whole poem. Is there a definite view point being implied seriously about svEcCha-uniki? There are some 'yati' errors at some places. eg: ide prabhAkaru nabhimatamu naraya ^^^ ^^^^ unnateTlu vaccu? nevani kaina BTW, you said: > 'prANavAyu' venta prAmukhya tunnanu > 'udajani'ni galiyaga uniki pOyi > 'udaka' magucu, tAnu utkRshTa mavvadE? > ide prabhAkaru nabhimatamu naraya But you must be knowing that A.ve. Aksijanuku mIru haiDrOjanungalpa visphulinga mokaTi vEya kunna udaka mIya bOdu utkRshTa mUgAdu idi rasAyanAna chadivi yunTi! reagrds, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From BRAO@atlas.niaid.nih.gov Thu Feb 27 17:20:44 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA19553 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:20:39 -0600 Received: from atlas.niaid.nih.gov (atlas.niaid.nih.gov [128.231.240.60]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA12324 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:20:36 -0600 (CST) Received: by atlas.niaid.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC24DA.EC6E3FD0@atlas.niaid.nih.gov>; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:20:34 -0500 Message-ID: From: Bachoti Rao To: "'telusa@cs.wisc.edu'" Subject: RE: Problem (isolated for emphasis) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:20:33 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subba Rao wrote: >So, depending on *meaning* and *context*, a single word CAN become both >guru and laghu! Hard and fast rules (samyukta, samaasa, rEpha are not >deterministic in such situations). This is essentially, exploring the hidden >freedom in the rules! No! no! no! no! mahAnubhAvA! My different examples of kavipravara and kavi pravaruDu are to show clearly the fine distinction between the two usages and remove the confusion and show that that there is no freedom. As far as vi is considered, one expression is Sanskrit and the other is telugu. One is guruvu and the other is laghuvu. Make no mistake about it. If you play with words so you can have both expressions, each expression will have a different status for vi. This kind of play of words is what I meant by chitrakavitvam. But this does not violate any hard and fast rules. I can give many examples like that but they do not violate any rules. This is not a problem of chandas but how we should read. For each expression you have to read differently. Regards, Bachoti Sridhara Rao From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 17:59:01 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA20123 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:58:56 -0600 Received: from cobra.cems.umn.edu (cobra.cems.umn.edu [134.84.165.15]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13079 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:58:55 -0600 (CST) Received: by cobra.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA221577933; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:58:53 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:58:53 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:58:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199702272358.AA221577933@cobra.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Problem (isolated for emphasis) To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:58:53 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Bachoti Rao" at Feb 27, 97 06:20:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text > As far as vi is considered, one expression is Sanskrit and the other > is telugu. One is guruvu and the other is laghuvu. Make no mistake > about it. If you play with words so you can have both expressions, Saying "kavi pravaruDu" (kavi named pravaruDu) is just like saying "mahAkavi kALidAsaH" and does not make the combination telugu. It's as saskRt as "kavipravaruDu" is. I think AndhrIkaraNa is in adding "Du" but not in the way "kavi" and "pravara" are adjoined. If I join two sanskrit padAs without any telugu fillers, the joint must be sanskRt. Irrespective of whether they mean "pravaruDanE kavi" or "kavulalO pravaruDu". "kavi pravaraH"(kavi named pravaruDu) is also a sanskRt samAsam. "pravaraH nAmakaH kaviH". It's not telugu. This is compatible with the rule "sanskRt padAs can be joined by sanskRt sandhis but not telugu sandhis and vice versa" rAma+arpaNam = rAmArpaNam savarNadIrgha sandhi (sanskRt) rAma + ayya = rAmayya akAra sandhi (telugu) I can't use one sandhi at other place. Same with adjoined words also! > each expression will have a different status for vi. This kind of play > of words is what I meant by chitrakavitvam. But this does not > violate any hard and fast rules. I can give many examples like that > but they do not violate any rules. This is not a problem of chandas > but how we should read. For each expression you have to read > differently. So, atleast in some exceptional cases like chitrakavitvam, you agree that the way I read the poem or interpret the poem has influence on whether a letter is laghuvu or guruvu. The same literal sequence (string of characters) can be divided(gaNa vibhajana) differently depending on interpretation. > > Regards, > > Bachoti Sridhara Rao it doesn't violate these rules. but those rules are NOT deterministic. I can't process the line with an algorithm made from those rules. I should appeal to the meaning and type of the poem and check which one fits properly and whether taking that way violates any rule. you label it chitrakavitvam because it is exceptional. fine. BTW, could yuo provide some examples of chitrakavitvam? i'm curious. regards, subbarao -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Thu Feb 27 18:01:11 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA20151 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:01:06 -0600 Received: from hel4.arl.mil (hel4.arl.mil [128.63.37.4]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA13110 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:01:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 19:01:50 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: ANDHRA - 50 Years of India' Independence Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-ID: <9702271901.aa11700@HEL4.ARL.MIL> Though I am using palana's subject-title, I didn't put a number, so as not to mess up his numbering scheme. When I was in middle school, I read Andhra-praSasti. The piece on "vEgi kshEtramu" (I think that is the title) and especially the first poem in that made a lasting impression on me. The poet says - wandering in these bushes, I imagine that I am in some great town of yore; even though I am under alien rule at thi stime, I imagine myself to be a free bird in some ancient, free Andhra dESa. ee podalan jarincucu naheena mahA mahimAnubhAvamou nE pura veedhulando jariyincucu nunTi naTancu, pAratantr- yA patitunDa nayyunu, purA mahadAndhramunan swatantruDou nE purushunDanO yanucu, nee bhrama satyamugA talancedan The last poem in the piece. He says - From SrIkAkuLam on, the mention of any old Andhra kingdom moves my heart; if this were the result of of some association in lives past, how long does this Andhra blood flow inthese veins? immuga kAkuLammu moda lee varakun gala pUrva yAndhra rAj- yammula pEru jeppina hRdantaramElo calinci pOvu; nAr- drammagu citta vRttula purAkRta nirNayamEni, yenni jan- mammula kEni yee tanuvunan pravahincuno yAndhra raktamul! There is another in the khanDika, but I am not sure if I remember all of it. Let me try. ee nA padArpita-kshONi nE rAju dharmAsanambunDi smRtyardha-maneno! ee nA sareera man-divataLincina gAli yenta porAtanya mEcukoneno! ee nA tanU pUrNmaina yAkASammu nE kratu dhwanulu Sabdincinaviyo! ............................................ (no, I don't remember the tETageeti that follows. Help!) idi vinipintu nancu madi nenceda mitrulakun, gaLastha-gAd- gadikamu, lOcanAnta-bahudhA-sruta bAshpa nadammu, spandanA- spada hRdayammu, nA paniki cAlaka cEseDu, nannu nintagA neda padilincukonnadidi yekkaDi pUrvapu janma vAsanO! I mean to read this to my friends; but the lump in my throat, the tears in my eyes, and the tremor in my heart, make me incapable for the job; what unseen power from long ago is still influencing me! I apologize for the quality (the lack thereof) of the translations. Perhaps they weren't necessary. I would be glad if someone else comes up with a good translation. Ramakrishna From vissa@cortex.neuro.mssm.edu Thu Feb 27 19:47:44 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA21389 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:47:38 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA14908 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:47:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA08619 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:46:11 -0600 Received: from cortex.neuro.mssm.edu (cortex.neuro.mssm.edu [146.203.5.10]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id TAA08610 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:46:08 -0600 Received: by cortex.neuro.mssm.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA06065; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:34:42 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:49:01 -0500 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu From: vissa@cortex.neuro.mssm.edu (Prabhakar Vissavajjhala) Subject: Re: (Re): svEccha - uniki Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Dear Sir: Thanks for your feed back and comments. Sree varigonDa subba rAv gaaru wrote on Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:49:18 (CST) > Hi! > There are some 'yati' errors at some places. That is right. I am still in the process of perfecting. > Independently taken, the poems are a good reading. But I couldn't draw a >> coherent conclusion about 'svEcCha-uniki' after I read the >whole poem. > Is there a definite view point being implied seriously about svEcCha-uniki? Certainly. But as you said, I understood it is not evident. It means I am not yet perfect in driving the ponit home. In short, it is 'chemical philosophy of society'. ' Freedom brings 'identity'. However, such a freedom should not go to ridiculous extent, like the 'letters' and the 'grahAs' charming themselves in a free style without any 'law and order' (niyati, kramata). In the former case, there will not be any 'words', if 'letters' feel toatlly free (imagining that 'letters' have a will power like humans). If 'words' feel free, there will not be 'sentences'. This was attempted in the early poems. So, 'svEccha' got to have a sense of the 'law and order'. If so, what about 'identity', that is dependent on 'freedom'? Unless one gives up some freedom/identity/ego; there can't be something great achieved. This is emphasized by the example of 'oxygen' losing 'identity' while becoming another important compound 'water'. A. ve. 'prANavAyu' venta prAmukhya tunnanu 'udajani'ni galiyaga uniki pOyi 'udaka' magucu, tAnu utkRshTa mavvadE? ide prabhAkaru nabhimatamu naraya Indeed, it is the same for every 'compound' in nature, as the 'elements' that form the 'compound', lose their original identity at the end (They get a new identity, but do not retain the original one). If one imagines 'oxygen' as an egoistic person, who doesn't want to lose freedom/identity, one can't expect all essential 'water' to be formed. I attempted to bring out the same for humans also in these poems, with reference to 'identity/ego'. A. ve. ahamu prakka peTTi; ArATa mandaka sunta yahamu citta Suddhi tODa tyAga mivvaka ghana yOgambu galgunE? eTTi vAnikaina yurvi meeda A. ve. svEccha tODa uniki svacchanda mainanu mUrkha maina uniki muddu gAdu muppu deccu tanaku; mudamugA dorulaku ide prabhAkaru nabhimatamu naraya Hence, in my view, even if one wants to take 'nature' as the ultimate, all the elements; are forming 'compounds', while losing their identity. This teaches the 'humans' that complete freedom, identity or self-oriented attitude (ego) can not get them anything great; unless they can mingle with others sacrificing their 'identity/ego' at least partly. Because all the 'oxygen' in the nature is not forming 'water'. I went up to the other stage like the rest of the oxygen even is not existing as an 'element' (a state of complete freedom). Indeed, it is existing as a mixture with 'nitrogen', where the 'identity' is neither totally lost nor complete, as the elements in 'mixtures' don't lose 'identity'. This is brought out in the poem. A. ve. 'prANavAyu' vaina, prakRti yanduna miSra rUpa mande, melagu gAde? 'natrajani'ni galasi nayamaina 'gAligA' tanadu unike talaci, tallaDilune? ( miSramu = Mixture; natrajani = Nitrogen) Indeed, scientifically, it is very much true that inspite of 'oxygen' being damn essential for 'life', pure oxygen is equally harmful for 'life'. So, on par with that honestly speaking , a completely free person can also be equally dangerous for the society. From 'Chemistry' point of view, the ones that do exist only in 'elemental' state are 'inert gases'. That tallies with the people who, either live without any attachment or who, selfishly live for themselves. I briefly touched upon this saying, even a' yOgi' should think of the 'welfare of the mankind', inspite of not having any attachment to someone/something. (Of course, the other 'free category' never listens to anybody.) A. ve. cikku tolaga valayu; svEcchacE vyaktiki cikku deccu svEccha makku vagune? eTTi bandha meruga naTTi yOgiyu gUDa ella janula mElu nenca valade? So, grossly, the major essence is that one need not have to worry about the 'self identity' too much, as long as they are the part and parcel of a system, doing good for the society. > BTW you said: >> 'prANavAyu' venta prAmukhya tunnanu >> 'udajani'ni galiyaga uniki pOyi >> 'udaka' magucu, tAnu utkRshTa mavvadE? >> ide prabhAkaru nabhimatamu naraya >But you must be knowing that >A.ve. Aksijanuku mIru haiDrOjanungalpa > visphulinga mokaTi vEya kunna > udaka mIya bOdu utkRshTa mUgAdu > idi rasAyanAna chadivi yunTi! Exactly. But when this process of combination is extrapolated to humans/society, the 'visphulinga' of water-forming Chemistry' is nothing but the 'magnanimity' of the persons involved, which makes the persons sacrifice the 'identity/ego' and mingle with someone, in order to gain 'something new' in the interest of the public. Afterall, I honestly feel that this is the major lesson that 'nature' silently has been teaching the humans for ages, but unfortunately only a few are learning and implementing it. Chemically speaking, the very human body itself is nothing but the combination of various elements, which lose their 'identity' in the process. If all of them claim their own 'identity', can human (life) exist? Perhaps, that is what death can be described as. With regards, Prabhakar Vissavajjhala From varigond@cems.umn.edu Thu Feb 27 20:49:04 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA22363 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:48:59 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA15936 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:48:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id UAA08817 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:47:32 -0600 Received: from hart.cems.umn.edu (hart.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.2]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id UAA08808 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:47:29 -0600 Received: by hart.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA293318130; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:48:50 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:48:50 -0600 Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:48:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199702280248.AA293318130@hart.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: svEccha - uniki To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:48:50 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Prabhakar Vissavajjhala" at Feb 27, 97 08:49:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Hi! Your explanation brought in a great sense to the whole thing. > Certainly. But as you said, I understood it is not evident. It means I am > not yet perfect in driving the ponit home. In short, it is 'chemical > philosophy of society'. I see some relation with the discussion between Sri vElUri-Pillalamarri(chanda as a bandha) and vElUri-Nagulapally (Feynman's Physics). I wonder why you didn't include some vacana between poems to make the logic clearer. Not that you must use vacana for clarity. we can explain with even more connecting poems. If you use vacana for one or two line explanation, the combination is ideal because poems emphasize your analogies and vacana explain the transition between different points you had to say. (After reading your explanations somebody may say, "see! you explained more clearly in vacana than in poems". I am trying to prevent such a thing with this.) Such a chemical philosophy inspired by nature is really observed at other places too! Nagulapally's Feynman's quote is on similar lines. Even on atomic and subatomic scales or at cosmic scale, nature is intriguing and inspiring. There is a different kind of beauty when you break or integrate things in science. > poems. So, 'svEccha' got to have a sense of the 'law and order'. If so, Using the same word 'svEccha' for freedom,law and order, ego etc is confusing unless you explicitly explain. Some of the points are 'chemically' disputable! But, I think that's tolerable. Ex: When compounds are formed, the elements don't really lose their IDENTITY. They may lose some of their aspects and gain new ones. But oxygen exists in water too. May be we can say, oxygen loses 'ego'! > Indeed, it is the same for every 'compound' in nature, as the 'elements' > that form the 'compound', lose their original identity at the end (They > get a new identity, but do not retain the original one). If one imagines > 'oxygen' as an egoistic person, who doesn't want to lose freedom/identity, > one can't expect all essential 'water' to be formed. I attempted to bring > out the same for humans also in these poems, with reference to > 'identity/ego'. > > >But you must be knowing that > >A.ve. Aksijanuku mIru haiDrOjanungalpa > > visphulinga mokaTi vEya kunna > > udaka mIya bOdu utkRshTa mUgAdu > > idi rasAyanAna chadivi yunTi! > > Exactly. But when this process of combination is extrapolated to > humans/society, the 'visphulinga' of water-forming Chemistry' is nothing > but the 'magnanimity' of the persons involved, which makes the persons > sacrifice the 'identity/ego' and mingle with someone, in order to gain > 'something new' in the interest of the public. i would like to interpret 'visphulinga' differently. It's neither in oxygen nor in hydrgen. It's something different from these that causes them unite. So, it's like a 'spark of j~nAna' from other sources a guru (no laghu:-) ) or whatever that stimulates and enlightens the 'egoistic' or 'ignorant' mind. That's knowledge. That's consciousness. That's energy. That's what you don't have from the elements before the reaction. But after the reaction, the 'enlightened' is another source/sink(storehouse) of energy. (Rxn produces/consumes energy). The visphulinga is the activation energy of the rxn. > Afterall, I honestly feel that this is the major lesson that 'nature' > silently has been teaching the humans for ages, but unfortunately only a > few are learning and implementing it. Chemically speaking, the very human > body itself is nothing but the combination of various elements, which lose > their 'identity' in the process. If all of them claim their own 'identity', > can human (life) exist? Perhaps, that is what death can be described as. > > With regards, > Prabhakar Vissavajjhala Prof. Susarla Dakshinamuri(first name ?) at Dept of Chemical Engg, Andhra University has very interesting compositions like this. His sons were with me at IITK and they showed me some. If I can get them now, I will post them here. Here are a few lines from one of my uncompleted kavita. (Just to note the similarity in thought) On Dynamism: parama ushNam sunna kAdu prakRteppuDu parugu dIstundi gAli kaNamulu kshaNamu ainA kadalakunDA nilici yunTAyA? paina sthabdata kaligi yunnaa, parama aNuvulu prakampistAyi niScalatvamu kAdu satyamu nitya SOdhanayE! mUgajIvula kaina gAni manasu lOpala palukucunTundi kAlameppuDu kshaNamu kUDaa kadalakunDA AgananTundi. The implication is: the universe is dynamic. regards, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From sreeni@ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de Fri Feb 28 00:26:18 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA25394 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:26:12 -0600 Received: from ktp_serv.uni-paderborn.de (ktp_serv.uni-paderborn.de [131.234.180.5]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA19257 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:26:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from ktpsp6.ktpsp (ktpsp6.uni-paderborn.de [131.234.180.2]) by ktp_serv.uni-paderborn.de (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA04899 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:25:01 +0100 Received: by ktpsp6.ktpsp (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA16272; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:26:07 +0100 From: sreeni@ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Message-Id: <199702280626.HAA16272@ktpsp6.ktpsp> Subject: Re: Re[4]: Re : [Great Writers, Biases..Times] To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:26:07 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <199702271925.AA202771558@cobra.cems.umn.edu> from "Subbarao Varigonda" at Feb 27, 97 01:25:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP2] Content-Type: text >> Subbarao Varigonda sagte : > > to be educated about those "times" when people have > > conversed in chadObaddha poetry. > I know no history. That's just my imaginaary thought in reverence to the Yes, 'Once upon a time' Sanskrit was a 'spoken' language too! > Who knows! Had there been no change-over to vyAvahArika bhAsha from > grAndhika bhAsha, we would have been reading all literature in > VSN style of language and we would have missed a good deal of literature How much do we know about pre-VSN (to be precise pre-chi.soori) times? Lets skip kavitrayam, Srinatha and like and lets just stick to last 150 years. Surely you 'd have heard of CPBrown and his contributions to Telugu, I guess. > > de gustibus non est disputandum. > I am unable to decipher this supposedly Latin sentence! Could you please > tarnslate it? Oh, you have either to know Latin or be a long time Telusa-/SCITer. How about checking in the archives :). Regards, Sreenivas P.S. You have outbeaten me Vari gaaru! Even in my best days I did n't manage to submit 10+ messages to this mailing list on a single day. Just kidding! From vasu@india.hp.com Fri Feb 28 01:44:36 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA26195 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:44:30 -0600 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [15.253.88.10]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA20370 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:44:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from manu.india.hp.com (manu.india.hp.com [15.10.41.218]) by palrel3.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA24399 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by manu.india.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA02837; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:16:34 +0500 From: Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao Message-Id: <9702280816.AA02837@manu.india.hp.com> Subject: Re: Re : [Great Writers, Biases..Times] To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 13:16:33 IST In-Reply-To: <9702271139.aa24025@HEL4.ARL.MIL>; from "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" at Feb 27, 97 11:39 am X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] sri raamakRshNa gaaru says: > That the chandas restricts expression is a fallacious argument. It does > not, in the hands of a skilled craftsman. On the other hand, it certainly > enhances the expression, if one is 'knowledgeable'. > > Ramakrishna Chhandas gives you metrical/musical frame. You have to fill-up. That's basically a mechanical job. Not a creative one. So it's more a matter of routine and habbit than of knowledge or even talent. Choosing a chhandoe meter is like making the first mistake and doing a lot of clever things to cover the first mistake up. It is hiding behind words; mere words! It could not be otherwise. Poets gifted with 'auditory imagination' (borrowing an Eliot's phrase) can always do a better job regardless of whether they choose chhandas or not. There is no way a chhandoe meter can present itself for expressions which poets of these days are interested in. Also it is restrictive for an excellent reason that it ASKS me to fill-up a frame with words which are subject to MECHANICAL SCANNING. (As an aside, of the commnets we have seen in the last four days or so, how many pertain to the sense? ALmost all talk about laghuvu's and guruvus, yatis and prasas gaNas and whatever) I know you can cite innumerable examples which support your argument. I too can cite, as you can too, examples from verse libre which support mine. That's not the point. Chhandas was there. It is no longer necessary. -- Regards & Thanks Vasu. From vasu@india.hp.com Fri Feb 28 02:43:37 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA26695 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:43:32 -0600 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [15.253.88.10]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20989 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:43:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from manu.india.hp.com (manu.india.hp.com [15.10.41.218]) by palrel3.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA29590 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by manu.india.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA02865; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:15:38 +0500 From: Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao Message-Id: <9702280915.AA02865@manu.india.hp.com> Subject: assu Again] To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 14:15:37 IST In-Reply-To: <9701278570.AA857073584@smtpgate.anl.gov>; from "Rao Veluri" at Feb 27, 97 11:57 am X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] sri vaeloori garu says PR> "--- That the chandas restricts expression is a fallacious argument. PR> It does not, in the hands of a skilled craftsman. On the other hand, PR> it certainly enhances the expression, if one is 'knowledgeable'.---" VVR> The above argument is de ja vu to plebians like me! when was that deja? what have you vu? (sorry can't generate those french accent marks despite my irresistible urge to showoff!) VVR> But, then VSN has used close to 130 chandassulu in his VVR> raamayaNa kalpavRikshamu. It would be horrendous to prove his VVR> own assertions on the chadassu-bhaashaa tatwamu, and the VVR> chandassu-bhaasha Saktulu, etc. Is it necessary that we should always go to VSN ? Can one poet - however great - immortalize chhandassu and prove that it is sinequanon to poetry? VVR> Of course, if we agree as "oneman" that VSN is not VVR> to be relegated to the status of Rishi, but only to be VVR> reckoned as an ordinary kavi! I think, there are lots VVR> of people who believe that VSN is not only a great kavi VVR> but a Rishi too!! OK. A Rshi that did kavitaa tapassu. Same point again! This tendency to go back to one person and not to a live trend is inherently week. It merely shows a fact! Indirectly, it seeks to prove theory by one example! It doesn't enquire into a million other factors which play a role in making a poet. It even smacks of a theoy that poets, in ultimate terms, are born! Chosen by providence! -- Regards & Thanks Vasu. From vasu@india.hp.com Fri Feb 28 03:23:32 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA26901 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:23:27 -0600 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [15.253.88.10]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA21375 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:23:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from manu.india.hp.com (manu.india.hp.com [15.10.41.218]) by palrel3.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA03341 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by manu.india.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA02888; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:55:34 +0500 From: Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao Message-Id: <9702280955.AA02888@manu.india.hp.com> Subject: [As Always Chhandassu Again] To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 14:55:34 IST In-Reply-To: <9702280915.AA02865@manu.india.hp.com>; from "Nyayapathi Srinivasa Rao" at Feb 28, 97 2:15 pm X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Hi all, The message to which this one is a reply was entitled [As Always Chhandaasu Again], but due to editing errors in the subject line, it appeared as 'assu again'. i'm sorry! -- Regards & Thanks Vasu. From mahesh@expert.cc.purdue.edu Fri Feb 28 07:02:09 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA28862 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:02:03 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA23907 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:02:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id HAA10882 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:00:37 -0600 Received: from expert.cc.purdue.edu (expert.cc.purdue.edu [128.210.10.11]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id HAA10873 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:00:32 -0600 Received: (from mahesh@localhost) by expert.cc.purdue.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) id IAA29147 for telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:01:56 -0500 (EST) From: Mahesh Panchagnula Message-Id: <199702281301.IAA29147@expert.cc.purdue.edu> Subject: Re: ANDHRA - 50 Years of India' Independence -#5 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:01:56 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9702271614.AA6859@cas.org> from "PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)" at Feb 27, 97 04:14:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) namaskAram palana garu! I missed the first four posts of "50 years-ANDHRA". I wanted to archive those posts for myself. Could you please email me the first four of that series? thanks, mahesh From mahesh@expert.cc.purdue.edu Fri Feb 28 07:10:31 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA28901 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:10:27 -0600 Received: from expert.cc.purdue.edu (expert.cc.purdue.edu [128.210.10.11]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA24006 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:10:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from mahesh@localhost) by expert.cc.purdue.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) id IAA01703 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:10:24 -0500 (EST) From: Mahesh Panchagnula Message-Id: <199702281310.IAA01703@expert.cc.purdue.edu> Subject: Talking in ChandObaddha poetry. To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:10:23 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text namaskAram: The conversation about talking in chandas is interesting. One minor point though is that vachanam was there much before metre came in. The oldest of upanishads are not metrical. So conversation was of course easiest carried on without metre. However, a pre-requisite for writing good peotry is the existence of "exact" synonyms. This is necessary to express a different ideas in a certain metre. Or conversely, to express the same idea differently at different times. For example, aSvamu, gurramu, turagamu for horse. This concept is alien to english!!!! So what is the theory behind the evolution of synonyms? Is it that they evolved over time starting from some subtle differences between them or was it explicitly brought in for poetic usage. IMHO, this is redundancy. Why do you need ten different words to refer to one animal? thanks mahesh From narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Fri Feb 28 08:46:15 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA29648 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:46:10 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA25425 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:46:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id IAA11145 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:44:43 -0600 Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu [129.25.3.11]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA11136 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:44:39 -0600 Received: from [144.118.12.138] (spray1.coe.drexel.edu [144.118.12.138]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA18444 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:45:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:45:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702281445.JAA18444@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> X-Sender: narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu From: narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Nasy Sankagiri) Subject: CandO Vs. non-Cando, aka carvita carvaNam Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) vAsu-PRK gArla samvAdampai... idantA carvita carvaNam ayinA, okka mATa. (BTW, vAsu gAru asked about the 'deja vu' on this topic: ayyA, I vishayAnni cAlA sArlu I #forum#lO nalaggoTTAru). Candas lO rAyaDamA, vacana kavita rAyaDamA anE praSna, tanaku kAvalasina padhdhatini encukunE swECCa kaviki eppuDoo (anTE vacan kavita modalaina tarvAta) unnAyi. Candas ki konni upayOgAlu lEka pOlEdu. andulO mukhyamainadi (nA uddESamlO) laya. Candas lO unna laya valla, padyAlu cadivina vALLaki sulabhamgA gurtunTAyi. pUrva kavulu tama kAvyAlu cAlA kAlam nilavAlanE kOrikatO rASArani na uddESam. adIkAka, A kAlamlO rAtapratulu andarikI andubATulO lEvu - andukani Sruta pANDityamE heccu. VITanniTikI Candassu upayOga paDindi. Candas lO inkO vishayam kluptata. padyAllO, Candassuki amaraDaniki akkaDakkaDA peTTuDu padAlu cErinA, pUrva kavula padyAlu cAlA maTTuku kluptangA unTAyi. vAsu gAranTAru: >Chhandas gives you metrical/musical frame. You have to fill-up. >That's basically a mechanical job. Not a creative one. > >So it's more a matter of routine and habit than of knowledge >or even talent. >Also it is restrictive for an excellent reason that >it ASKS me to fill-up a frame with words which are subject >to MECHANICAL SCANNING. idi nijamE. ayitE, konni nibandhanalaki lObaDi unDE kaLa EdainA I paristhitini edurukunTundi. sangItam tIsukONDi, modaTa SRti, swaram paTTubaDAli, A taravAta laya teliyAli, ivannI sAdhana ayinAka gAni swantagA sangItAnni puTTincE Sakti rAdu. kAnI, kavitvam vishayam vEru. dAni padhdhatulU, prayOjanAlU vErE. dInlO ceppadalcukunna vastuvu mukhyam. A vastuvu Candas vallanO, inkEdainA karaNamgAnO maruguna paDipOtE, kavitva prayOjanamE nASanamai pOtundi. inkA vAsu gAranTAru: >There is no way a chhandoe meter can present itself for >expressions which poets of these days are interested in. idi nirvivAdAmSamani naa uddESam. I rOju kavitA vastuvulaki nyAyam ceyyaDAniki Candas saripOdu kadA, aDDankE avutundi. I vastuvulni kUDA CandamlO #effective#gA rAyagala kavulunTArEmO, manaki telIdu. unna kavulantA, (Candaanni sAdhana cEsi, okappuDu ArAdhincina vALLE) pAta Candas ippaTi kavitva prayOjanAlaki saripOdani grahinci, kotta dArlu paTTAru. A paTTina dArlalO rAcabATaloo vESAru. mari vILLU kavitA pratibhAvantulu kAdanukOvAlA? (oka piTTa katha. konta kAlam kritam, #library#lO, haidarAbAdu vAstavyulaina oka AcAryula vAru rAsina CandO badhdha kAvyam okaTi cadivAnu. kavi gArU, CAndasuDaina oka palleTUri mitruDU kalisi haidarAbAdu nagara paryaTana ceyyaTam kathA vastuvu. bhAsha saraLamgAnE undi, padyAlU bAnE rASAru, ayitE vinOdaannivvaTam tappa, pAThakulni kadilincE Sakti lEka pOyindanipincindi. dIniki tODu, CandO-lankAra bhAgamaina kavi samayAlU, vagairA koncem ebbeTTugA kUDA anipincAyi). CandO badhdha kavitvAnni carcincEppuDu, kavitva tatvAnni, kavihRdayAnni pUrtigA vadili, gaNa vibhajanani mukhya vishayam ceyyaTam vicArakaram. anTE, Candas tappinci dInlO mATTADukunEnduku EmI lEdannamATa. mugimpugA CandOpriyulaku oka vinnapam: I SatAbdapu kavullOnU Candam cakkagA rAsina vALLunnAru, VSN, jAshuvA et al. vILLa kavitvAnnI, kavitA rItulnI sOdAharaNamgA carcistE bAvunTundani ASa. samarthulu anduku pUnukO galaru. bhavadIyuDu, nArAyaNaswAmi From varigond@cems.umn.edu Fri Feb 28 09:44:38 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA00170 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:44:33 -0600 Received: from rainy.cems.umn.edu (rainy.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA26697 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:44:32 -0600 (CST) Received: by rainy.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA006784671; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:44:31 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:44:31 -0600 Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:44:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199702281544.AA006784671@rainy.cems.umn.edu> Subject: On Summer Training... To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu (telusa) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:44:31 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text hi! Sri Sreenivas Paruchuri said: >P.S. You have outbeaten me Vari gaaru! Even in my best days I did n't manage > to submit 10+ messages to this mailing list on a single day. > Just kidding! Really!? A good news is I can't annoy you any more now. All my work is pending! I am retiring with this post for some time. (exams time!) I will be following the discussions however. Below is a poem I wrote during my summer training at Vam Organic Chemicals Ltd, Gajroula, UP. I hope you will enjoy the humour. (Please do not say this to the course instructor Prof.M.Someswara Rao, IITK, if you ever meet him! :-) >> de gustibus non est disputandum. > Oh, you have either to know Latin or be a long time Telusa-/SCITer. How > about checking in the archives :). That may be sufficient but not necessary. For, my personal contacts helped me better than telusa in this regard :-) Thanks to vElUri gAru. #B.Tech# lO #summer Training# ------------------------------------ racana: varigonDa subbArAvu (1996) cham. gaNagaNa ganTamrOginanu ga@my^ mani sairanu gOlacEsinan kaNakaNa manDu bhAskaruDu kAyamu mADcina lakshyapeTTarI ghanulu sudIrgha gADha sukhavanta praSAnta sushupti yandunE dinamulu rAtrulun gaDapi dIkshaga SikshaNa pUrticEsedam^. gI. migula proddekkina pidapa mElukAnci vaDiga AphIsu nandu cEvrAlu cEsi accaTaccaTa taccATa lADi marala gadini cErkoni pOdumu gADhanidra! sI. mettani pAn&pulu, menDuga grAsamu paina jEbulu ninDa paikamicce! paniyu pATayu lEdu paivAru cUDaru panivELa landaina paDakagadine! sAyantramula yandu saradAku klab housu! ATapATala tOTi alasipOyi UrilOniki pOyi Utappamulu mekki paDaka vEyuduminka pAnpumIda! gI. renDu mAsammu lI tIru ninDipOye mugise vEsavi SikshaNa mODu lAga phalitamEmana nalvuri bhavita yandu kArya Sunyata krammenu kaTTakaDaku. * * * kam. kAnIyamu idi satyamu pOnIyamu manasu nunDi munupaTi pratibhan rAnEradu SUnyata mA kEnATiki mA vivEka medirincunulE! | regards, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From srini@usiva.com Fri Feb 28 10:09:18 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA00651 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:09:13 -0600 Received: from gauntlet.usiva.com (uucp@gauntlet-all.usiva.com [206.67.217.2]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27274 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:09:12 -0600 (CST) Received: by gauntlet.usiva.com; id LAA03045; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:09:10 -0500 Received: from unknown(198.5.168.1) by gauntlet.usiva.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma002975; Fri, 28 Feb 97 11:08:39 -0500 Received: by usinet.usiva.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15531; Fri, 28 Feb 97 11:01:21 EST Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 11:01:21 EST From: srini@usiva.com (Srini) Message-Id: <9702281601.AA15531@usinet.usiva.com> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Chandas Namaskaram! From the many discussions the postings on Chandas, I gather that in "sahajamagu prEma" the letter "gu" is accepted as laghuvu and is challenged if it can be guruvu. I found the following poem in "Bhagavatam" by Potana. It is from 3rd skandam, poem no.291. kandam: I I U U U I I U vita taartha gnaana japa I I I I U * I U I I I U I I U stuti makaranda prahRushTa Sruti jaata madhu I I I I I I I I U U vrata gaNa parivRuta SOBhaa I I U ? I I I U I I I I I U U gata kIrti prasava maalikalu galavaanin The letter where "*" is must be laghuvu for 2nd padam to be correct. Which implies the letter before the word "prahRushTa" is not affected by the ra-vattu to pa-akshara. But that contradicts the condition in 4th paadam. Because the letter where "?" is must be guruvu for 4th paadam to be correct. Which means letter before the word "prasava" must be affected by the ra-vattu to pa-akshara (prasava) to force "ti" in "kIrti" to be guruvu. Am I missing. Please correct my understanding if I am wrong. With best regards -Srinivas Nagulapalli From nparinand@cas.org Fri Feb 28 10:15:37 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA00797 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:15:26 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27411 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:15:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id KAA11499 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:13:59 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA11490 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:13:56 -0600 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:55:49 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702280955.AA18748@cas.org> Subject: ANDHRA - 50 Years of India' Independence - #7 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) danDAlu danDAlu BAratamAta ***************************** danDAlu danDAlu BAratamAta avi andukoni dIvincu BAratamAta gAndhI mahAtmuDu BAratamAta nI muddu moDukunnAde BAratamAta nI muddu koDkunDaga BAratamAta mAkEmi koduvalEdu BAratamAta mAkEmi koratalEdu BAratamAta tiTTinaTTivAralanu BAratamAta tiTTanaina tiTTamamma BAratamAta koTTinavAralanu BAratamAta koTTanaina koTTamamma BAratamAta mammu campabooninArugAni BAratamAta koncamaina jankamamma BAratamAta koncamaina bedaramamma BAratamAta kallunILLu trAgamamma BAratamAta nIpAdAlatODu talli BAratamAta malluguDDAlu kaTTamu cooDu mahAdEvutODu sIma guDDalu kaTTamu cooDu sAmbaSivunitODu mooDuvandalEndla krinda BAratamAta kumpinODu diginADE BAratamAta nIvoorukunnADa 'va' BAratamAta manadESamella docinADE BAratamAta aDavulanni vADivanTa BAratamAta vADabbavacci vEsinADA BAratamAta samudrAlanni vADivanTa BAratamAta vADitAtalocci tovvinArA BAratamAta ******************* {karta teliyadu. tombadiyEndla dESaBaktuDu pADagA marupooru kOdanDa rAmireDDi gAru vrAsiyiccinadi.} N.B. iTuvanTi anAmaka dESABaktulendarO? vArandarikI nA AnandaBAShpAla vandanamulu!!! ******************************************************************************* Paranandi Lakshmi Narasimham CAS Columbus OH 43202 DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS. ****************************************************************************** From nparinand@cas.org Fri Feb 28 10:22:16 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01004 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:22:05 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27556 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:22:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:21:29 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702281121.AA20003@cas.org> Subject: Velcheru & Veluri TO Gidugu Sitapati To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Return-Path: Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:19:49 -0500 >From: nlp55 (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702281019.AA18911@cas.org> Subject: Velrui & Velcheru & Gidugu Sitapati To: telusa-scit.@smartcad.me.wisc.edu -----> This SCIT link is bombing Bounced back. Last night Sri Veluri gAru was kind of upset with me for ruining the rhyme of Gurazada's miNugurulu. Sorry sir! I didn't mean to. gurazADa gaNalani gaNimcagala guNamekkaDidi nAku? What I was (am) genuinely interested is in the kids rhymes (pillala pATalu) which my boys would like to sing easily. Bapa Rao gAru also has some interest in these songs. I understand that Sri Veluri gAru used to write some kids songs and he even published one such song in Andhra Prabha around the mid 50s. This man (gentleman ?), Veluri gAru, is something! He even does not have a copy. Please tell us the project on Kids Songs carried out under the direction of Sri G.V.Sitapati tAtagAru at Rajahmundry wherein the same project Sri Velcheru Narayanarao gAru worked for some time (with/for G.V. Sitapati gAru - I came to know this from Sri Velcheru gAru - later Sri Veluri gAru said the same). I will leave the rest to Sri Veluri gAru to complete on this project on Kids Songs in Telugu and his ventures in writing Kids songs. I wish Sri Velcheru gAru says something on his experiences with Sri GV Sitapati gAru. Sri GV Sitapati was (is) special to my family. He was something...........One should see him and meet. Left Parlakimedi saying "My Andhra". The Andhra Government did do nothing for him or for his father, Sri GV Rama Murthy, those days. (Even if the Govt. of Andhra did anything, it was a miniscule). The literary lovers and admirers of Vaduka Bhasha did help this father & son team. Any way, that is a sidebar. Veluri gAru - pAlana Disclaimer: Opinions are mine only. From varigond@cems.umn.edu Fri Feb 28 10:28:05 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01166 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:27:59 -0600 Received: from rainy.cems.umn.edu (rainy.cems.umn.edu [134.84.54.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27714 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:27:59 -0600 (CST) Received: by rainy.cems.umn.edu (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA013207277; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:27:57 -0600 From: Subbarao Varigonda Posted-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:27:57 -0600 Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:27:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199702281627.AA013207277@rainy.cems.umn.edu> Subject: Re: Chandas To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:27:57 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9702281601.AA15531@usinet.usiva.com> from "Srini" at Feb 28, 97 11:01:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sorry for intruding again! But I haven't logged out yet! > From the many discussions the postings on Chandas, I gather that > in "sahajamagu prEma" the letter "gu" is accepted as laghuvu and is challenged > if it can be guruvu. I found the following poem in "Bhagavatam" by > Potana. It is from 3rd skandam, poem no.291. > > kandam: > I I U U U I I U > vita taartha gnaana japa > I I I I U * I U I I I U I I U > stuti makaranda prahRushTa Sruti jaata madhu > I I I I I I I I U U > vrata gaNa parivRuta SOBhaa > I I U ? I I I U I I I I I U U > gata kIrti prasava maalikalu galavaanin > > > The letter where "*" is must be laghuvu for 2nd padam to be correct. NO! Check again. It must be guruvu! The gaNas will be "nala-gaga-ja-sa-sa". This is consistent with fourth padam. > > -Srinivas Nagulapalli > If you read the dicussion over samaasas, the observation made was, in sanskrit or with sanskrit padas, guruvu is taken. (No laghuvu is found). So, try to find such a usage with sanskrit padas. In telugu samaasas, we have seen instances where both laghu and guru are taken. But in separate words of telugu like 'sahajamagu prEma', can guruvu be taken? If you are always taking guru in sanskrit, what is the rationale behind disallowing guruvu for telugu words in such case(non-samaasa)? That is the summary of discussion. If you can find examples that validate/invalidate any of the claims above, that will be great! regards, vari -- *********************************************************************** Varigonda Subbarao Present Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----------------- varigond@cems.umn.edu 1209, 8thSt SE Box#144, 46 Amundson Hall Minneapolis, MN 55414 University of Minnesota USA Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph:(612) 617-9377 ph: (612) 625-3367 URL: http://www.cems.umn.edu/~varigond *********************************************************************** From nparinand@cas.org Fri Feb 28 10:40:21 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01433 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:40:12 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27997 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:40:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id KAA11649 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:38:45 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA11640 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:38:41 -0600 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:40:04 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702281140.AA20257@cas.org> Subject: ANDHRA - 50 Years of India' Independence - # 8 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) telugu viira lEvara' ******************* by viplava kavi SRI SRI *********************** Sriirangam Sriiniva'Sara'u --------------------------- telugu viira lEvara' - diikshaboonisa'gara' dESama'ta svECCakOri tiruguba'Tu cEyara' da'ruNa ma'raNa ka'nDaku tallaDillavaddura' niitilEni Sa'sana'lu nETi nunDi raddura' niduravaddu bedaravaddu - ningi niiku haddura' yevaDuva'Du, yecaTiva'Du - yiTuvaccina tellava'Du kanDabalam, konDaPalam - kabaLincE dunDagiiDu ma'nadhanam, pra'Nadhanam - dOcukunE dongava'Du tagina Sa'sti ceyyara' - tarimitarimi koTTara' iidESam, iira'jyam - na'dE ani ca'Tinci pratimaNishi toDalu goTTi - SrunKala'lu pagulagoTTi curakattulu padunupaTTi - tudisamaram modalupeTTi simha'lai garjinca'lii - samha'ram sa'ginca'lii vandEma'taram - vandEma'taram O - sva'tantra viiruDa' - svara'jya Ba'nuDa' alloori siita'ra'mara'ja' andukO ma'pooja landukO ra'ja' alloori siita'ra'mara'ja' tellava'Di gunDello nidurincina va'Da'! ma' nidurincina pourusha'gni ragilincinava'Da' tya'ga'lE varista'm - kashTa'lE Barista'm niScayamuga, nirBayamuga niivenTanEnaDusta'm ----Sri Sri __________(from Padmalaya Pictures: Allori Sitaramaraju)____________________ ***************************************************************************** Paranandi Lakshmi Narasimham CAS Columbus OH 43202 Disclaimer: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS. ***************************************************************************** From juvvadi@horizoncomp.com Fri Feb 28 10:50:34 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01680 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:50:28 -0600 Received: from cygnus.horizoncomp.com (juvvadi@cygnus.horizoncomp.com [204.91.181.9]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA28319 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:50:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (juvvadi@localhost) by cygnus.horizoncomp.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA22788 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:44:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:43:59 -0500 (EST) From: "Ramana R. Juvvadi" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Chandas In-Reply-To: <9702281601.AA15531@usinet.usiva.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Srini wrote: > I I U U U I I U > vita taartha gnaana japa > I I I I U * I U I I I U I I U There is no well defined way to break words in Telugu. That is one of the reasons it is very difficult to write a spell checker. This actually comes as a surprise to many people. Except for chando rule as above, there was never a need for defining the boundary of a word very pecisely. Back in the days when classics were written on tAlapatra granthAlu, it depended on the scribe where to put blanks. In the modern day it depends on the proof reader. Perhaps this qualifies as the poetic freedom Subba Rao is referring to. Coming back to the point, Potana would have meant vitatArthaj~nAna as one word. Ramana From nparinand@cas.org Fri Feb 28 11:12:47 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02376 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:12:41 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28954 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:12:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA11831 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:11:14 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA11822 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:11:11 -0600 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:12:34 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702281212.AA20788@cas.org> Subject: ANDRHA - 50 Years of India' Independence - #9 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) svargiiya aDivi ba'pira'ju ************************** (1895-1952) ----------- telugu kavulalO aDavi ba'pira'judi viSishTa stha'namu. iiyana kavi, ga'yakuDu, naTuDu, viSEshinci saha'ya nira'karaNOdyamamulO jailuku veLLina dESaBaktuDu. ga'ndhiiga'ricE praBa'vitulai, a'yananu kiirtistoo vra'sina gEyam idi. ba'pira'juga'ru svayamga' yennO saBalalO ii gEya'nni cadivi vinipinci SrOtalanu uttEjitulanu cEsEva'ru. *************************** * hima'layOttunga Srungam * *************************** hima'layOttunga Srungam nii bratuku uma'patii nrutyarangam dESa'la va'nCalu a'Sa' hrudayamulu nElodili pOlEni Siitala tala'lalO jiimoota panktikai vyOma vartmamu cocci Osa'mi; ||hima'la|| sarva padha jana kOTlu sa'gi ya'tra'rdhulai janmalu pavitramai caduvulonda sna'tulagu sangama'niki cEru nii kaLLa taLataLalu nii ma'Ta pa'Talu nii navvu rasamulu vENiitrayammoutu nii nunDi veDalera' adi maha' satyammu ||hima'la|| Silpa sootra'rdha'lu telpu soundarya'lu svalpamai moortilO dESa dESa'la aSa'nta'la veligistoo nii bOsi navvulO nii srushTi va'kkulO nii kannu janTalO rEkalu tirugutoo maha'tma'; lOkamOhanamayye hima'layOttunga Srungam nii bratuku uma'patii nrutyarangam ----aDavi ba'pira'jula va'ru ******************************************************************************* From : dESam pilupu Editors: Sarojini Regani & Devulapalli Ramanujarao ******************************************************************************* a' maha'tmuni Sakti paramESvara Sakti. andukE antamandini a'karshincagalEDu. andarnii oka taDu miida naDipincagalgEDu. daivam marekkaDo lEdu. mana kaLLa mundE kanpinci adrusyamaipoindi. PARANANDI LAKSHMI NARASIMHAM CAS Columbus, OH 43202 DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS. ***************************************************************************** -------- From sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil Fri Feb 28 12:00:53 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA03130 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:00:47 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00079 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:00:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA12038 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:59:20 -0600 Received: from anvil.nrl.navy.mil (anvil.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.184.16]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA12029 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:59:15 -0600 Received: from [132.250.185.112] (k-sadananda.nrl.navy.mil) by anvil.nrl.navy.mil (4.1/4.7) id AA23570; Fri, 28 Feb 97 12:58:19 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:00:32 -0500 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) From: sada@anvil.nrl.navy.mil (sadananda) Subject: Re: ANDRHA - 50 Years of India' Independence - #9 Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) > svargiiya aDivi ba'pira'ju > ************************** > > (1895-1952) > ----------- Thanks for the poems. I used to enjoy aDivi baapiraaju navalalu. He was a master in building up the story. Can any one tell me where they are available? Is it possible to order these by mail? Hari Om! Sadananda From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Fri Feb 28 13:56:20 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA04489 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:56:14 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03025 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:56:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA19345 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:56:12 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA857166967; Fri, 28 Feb 97 13:54:08 CST Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 13:54:08 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701288571.AA857166967@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re[2]: Chandas Sri Ramana in response to Sri Srinivas ( 2/28/97 11:12 AM) says: [snip gaNa vibhjana] "---There is no well defined way to break words in Telugu. ... there was never a need for defining the boundary of a word very pecisely. Back in the days when classics were written on tAlapatra granthAlu, it depended on the scribe where to put blanks. In the modern day it depends on the proof reader. Perhaps this qualifies as the poetic freedom Subba Rao is referring to.---" Even today, some old people write without spaces between words, as we 'moderners' were trained to do! It is known as 'golusu kaTTu' raata, and it is pretty difficult and intriguing to read. I can provide samples of my grandfather's and uncle's postcards, written as late as in the 80s. The spacing between the words was an off-shoot of the Telugu printing press. You have rightly identified this as dependent on the proof reader! Even now, some of the strotraas and danDakaas which are printed as late as in the nineties, are printed without spaces between the words. A vestige of the golusu kaTTU, writing, I believe! BTW, even this topic seems as de ja vu to me! Didn't some one addressed this on Telusa some time ago in reference to punctuation marks in Telugu? May be, I am wrong! "--- Coming back to the point, Potana would have meant vitatArthaj~nAna as one word. ---" I feel totally inadequate even to guess what Potana meant! Regards. Venkateswara Rao Veluri Ramana From nparinand@cas.org Fri Feb 28 15:02:43 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA05053 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:02:37 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA04435 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:02:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id PAA12983 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:01:11 -0600 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA12974 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:01:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:02:28 -0500 From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pAranandi lakshmI narasimham)) Message-Id: <9702281602.AA23743@cas.org> Subject: ANDHRA - 50 Years of India' Independence # 10 To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) Sri Bellamkonda Chandramouli Sastry ********************************** (1918) ----- Srii bellamkonDa candramouLi Sa'striga'ru a'na'Du ja'tiiyOdyama'lalO pa'lgonina kavi. dESiiyulanu prabodhistoo anEka vya'sa'lu, gEya'lu Sa'striga'ru vra'sina'ru. bahugrandharacayitalaina Sa'striga'ru bahumuKamga' sa'rasatvakrushi yiina'Tikii nirantara'yamga' cEstunna'ru. *************** * uttishTha * *************** nidura vOvu tammulA'ra udayamayye lEvanDoy ! mii magatanu miirunTe mii magaTimi vegaTu puTTu mii velugulu malagipOvu mii vainame miiku lEda !! .... lEcina'ru mii yanujulu coocikoniri tamaka'ryamu mii paniye migili pOye mii pa'Taye migili yunDe !! mii svatamtravanamu ganuDu mii svECCa'giiti nanuDu musuguduppaTulu diisi muKamettuDu mundu miiru !! ii ciikaTi samkeLLE inka mimmu lEvaniivu svatvaminta caccukanTe caccipOvalEva mElu !! -------- bellamkonDa candramouLi Sa'sturlava'ru ****************************************************************************** from: dESam pilupu Editors: Sarojini Regani Devulapalli Ramanujarao ****************************************************************************** PARANANDI LAKSHMI NARASIMHAM CAS COLUMBUS, OH 43202 DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS. ***************************************************************************** -------- From rveluri@smtpgate.anl.gov Fri Feb 28 16:50:55 1997 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu (lucy.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.11]) by sea.cs.wisc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA06168 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:50:50 -0600 Received: from smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (smartcad4.me.wisc.edu [144.92.36.238]) by lucy.cs.wisc.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06860 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:50:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from teluscit@localhost) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA13600 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:49:23 -0600 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA13591 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:49:19 -0600 Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate2.anl.gov [146.137.96.34]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA23218 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:50:42 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) id AA857177436; Fri, 28 Feb 97 16:47:40 CST Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 16:47:40 CST From: "Rao Veluri" Message-Id: <9701288571.AA857177436@smtpgate.anl.gov> To: Telusa-Scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu Subject: SreeSree kaMdaalu konni - gaNagaNana kOsaM! Reply-To: telusa-scit@smartcad4.me.wisc.edu (*Will post to SCIT also*) SreeSree kaMdaalu konni - gaNagaNana kOsaM! [Just to add fuel and lighten up(No! Not to 'lighten' in the literal sense!) the academic discussion on the ongoing guruvu-laghuvu controversy. Hence, I beg to invoke "lightning alert." - V R Veluri] aMdaMgaa, madhurasa ni shyaMdaMgaa, paThitR hRdaya saMspaMdaMgaa kaMdaaloka vaMda raciM ciMdiki manasayye naaku sirisirimuvvaa baMDeDu cettanu ChaMda ScaMDamugaa pOgucEsi swaarasyamu coo DaMDani kOtalu kOstE cEMDaaDeda naTTi vaari ............... poorvula vale vraastEnE sarvartraa maMcidanucu swaataMtrya Sikhin kharvamonariMpa guMDeyo cervO nE ceppalEnu .................... SushkacchaaMdasa kavijana mushkarulaku soMTipikka, moorthammuna kaa yushkarmamu, tadupari SO cishkESuna kappagiMta ................. gorrela maMdaga vElaM verriga udrikta bhaava vivaSulayi janul kirrekki pOyinappuDu cirrettuku vaccu naaku ................. hippOpoTaamasokka bi shappunugani yaDige niTTu, "swaamee! meere llappuDu ceppiMdaannE ceppaDameMcEta?" nanucu ................ bhaashakoka sthaayi niccE praasalu yatu lalaMkRtulu vyaakRtulayyO pai sogasu pootakaitE cEsEdEmunnadiMka ...................... viprula vaakyaM muMdaTa apraacyula dhikkariMpu laagavanucu vE dapraamaNyamu gaa raa yaprOlu vaciMcu maaTa saardhakama jaroo! veLLiri doralanukuMTE koLLutinE vaLLa badulu gorrelnitinE vaLLOccinaTlu kaaMgres kuLLayila vaLLa valla ghOraalu jaroo! The following is the best description of me! pedabaalasiksha cadivee cadavaDamE taDavugaaga saahitya viSaa radulayinaTluga bhaaviM cedaru gadaa koMtamaMdi sirisirimuvvaa. Enjoy them over the weekend! cittagiMcavalenu. iTlu, vElUri veMkaTESwara raavu vraalu