From vvadlamani@vnet.IBM.COM Mon Nov 13 09:31:40 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 09:31:38 -0600; AA01864 Message-Id: <9511131531.AA29719@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from vnet.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 09:31:36 -0600 Received: from ATLVM1.VNET.IBM.COM by vnet.IBM.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1680; Mon, 13 Nov 95 10:31:19 EST Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 10:31:19 EST From: vvadlamani@vnet.IBM.COM To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: En cheppamanTaarU ? -- A Ghazal in Telugu *** Reply to note of 11/10/95 14:05 From: Viswanath Vadlamani Subject: En cheppamanTaarU ? -- A Ghazal in Telugu telugulO anTaaraa, En cheppamanTaarU ? ______________________________________ Hyderabaadu lO unToo urdu influence lEkundaa peragaDam asambhavam Ghazal lO unna maadhuryam, oka chuTkulE vinaDam loni anandam cheppa nalavi kaadu. adaab, telugU mE ghazal paiSh hai, mulaahizah furmaayiyE. gOTeelU, patangulU, baagugaa aaDaamu aaDenduke timu lEdu, En cheppamanTaarU ? fooTBoarDu, standingu, venakkala hangingu bassule lEvikkaDa, En cheppamanTaarU ? rEnDu jeLLa seetalu, venakkaala ElalU musali vaaNNayyaanu, En cheppamanTaarU ? zaradaa kiLLeelU, iraani chayilu idi U.S.A mitramaa, En cheppamanTaarU ? Jism-e-Dil, taqDeer kaa baadShah yeh kyon diyaa ? telugulO anTaaraa, En cheppamanTaarU ? Regards, Viswanath Vadlamani -- ___________________________________________________________ | | Vish Vadlamani | v v | IBM - FT Networking | v v | | v | vvadlamani@VNET.IBM.COM | | ________________________________|_________________________| All opinions expressed are mine only and not those of IBM | or my employers. | __________________________________________________________| From Bachoti_Rao@twin.niaid.pc.niaid.nih.gov Mon Nov 13 09:33:22 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 09:33:20 -0600; AA01883 Received: from alw.nih.gov by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 09:33:17 -0600 Received: from odie.niaid.nih.gov by alw.nih.gov (5.61/1.35(alw-2.4)) id AA00428; Mon, 13 Nov 95 10:33:14 -0500 Received: from pc.niaid.nih.gov by odie.niaid.nih.gov (5.67b/mg-1.53) id AA22536; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 09:27:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 10:36:04 EST Message-Id: <30a765e4@twin.niaid.pc.niaid.nih.gov> X-Mailer: Unix/3Com MX v4.8 93.11.30 From: Bachoti Rao To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: banDi ra, alooo, ara sunnA namastE! Sri Bharadwaj wrote, "telugu aksharAlalO "bannDi ra" (hallu) mariyu "aloo" (accu) kanumarugai pOtunnayi - mukhyamgaa aloo". mari ara sunnA kUDA alAgE kanumarugai potOndi kadA! aloo kluptamu (kliptamu if li is taken for aloo similar to ri in krishna) anna maTalO kAka inkekkaDa vastundO nAku gurtu rAvaDamlEdu. Can someone help? I vaguely remember that several years ago, there was a discussion about a policy decision to remove aloo from the elementary text books. Any recollections? Is the letter still included in the recent books? ara sunnA gurinchi eppuDO vinna mATa: Q: "chIkaTilO ara sunnA undA"? A: "kanipinchalEdu". - Bachoti Sridhara Rao From OU17023@deere.com Mon Nov 13 11:54:37 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 11:54:17 -0600; AA02915 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 11:54:06 -0600 Received: from gateway.deere.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzprz03175; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by gateway.deere.com; id LAA14028; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 11:50:48 -0600 Received: from deere.com(192.43.1.3) by gateway.deere.com via smap (g3.0.1) id xma013971; Mon, 13 Nov 95 11:50:25 -0600 Received: by deere.dx.deere.com (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07824; Mon, 13 Nov 95 11:50:26 CST Received: from TCP30.DX.DEERE.COM (tcp30-50.dx.deere.com) by deere.dx.deere.com (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07805; Mon, 13 Nov 95 11:50:25 CST Received: by TCP30.DX.DEERE.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L380P6) id 622349110095317FDACDXX21; 13 Nov 1995 11:48:11 GMT Message-Id: Date: 13 Nov 1995 11:48:11 GMT From: "OU17023" Subject: A "question" on Punctuation Comment: MEMO 11.13.95 11.48 Apparently-To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu namastE I don't know whether I am posing a silly question, but I have a nagging doubt since years about the punctuation we use in telugu. Most (or all?) of the punctuation marks we use in the written Telugu, I suppose, have been imported from the English. Am I Correct? Was this the recent phenomenon (in the British Days) and was not seen earlier? How were these represented in prose telugu in the olden days? Were there any original 'telugu punctuation' marks that existed and were used earlier, but are extinct now like the telugu numbers? If not, why weren't there any attempts to "originate" our own instead of borrowing them? (As far as I know telugu padyAlu don't use any punctuation marks and in Hindi, people use a vertical bar at the end of the sentence instead of a dot as we do). Were there any telugu names given to all of the punctuation marks we use today? (I can think of only aScharyArthakaM & praSnArthakaM). Hope knowledgeable members clear my doubts. Thanks and regards Krishna Kandadai From narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Mon Nov 13 15:20:43 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 15:20:38 -0600; AA08698 Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 15:20:37 -0600 Received: from [144.118.12.138] (spray1.coe.drexel.edu [144.118.12.138]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA27380 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:18:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:18:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199511132118.QAA27380@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Nasy Sankagiri) Subject: Re: banDi ra, alooo, ara sunnA > >ara sunnA gurinchi eppuDO vinna mATa: > >Q: "chIkaTilO ara sunnA undA"? >A: "kanipinchalEdu". > >- Bachoti Sridhara Rao Another one on ara sunnaa: A poet was getting some of his verses printed at a press in the good old days of making printing blocks, and manual compositing. He visited the press to review the progress. Meanwhile, the press received a shipment of the letter blocks (the individual pieces of letters). The foreman of the press, receiving the shipment, saw the poet, and asked him, 'kavi gaaroo, bastaaDu ara sunnaalu vaccaayi, ekkaDa veyyamanTaaru?'. The poet innocently replied, 'naaku maatram Em telusu naayanaa, neeku ekkaDa avasaram ani tOstE akkaDa vEyincu!' :-) Nasy From murty@engin.umich.edu Mon Nov 13 19:19:41 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 19:19:39 -0600; AA13448 Received: from azure.engin.umich.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 19:19:37 -0600 Received: (murty@localhost) by azure.engin.umich.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) id UAA15187; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 20:19:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 20:19:35 -0500 (EST) From: Katta G Murty To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: banDi ra, alooo, ara sunnA In-Reply-To: <199511132118.QAA27380@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nasy garoo: On my cooking adventure. I was all set to follow your recipe. But halfway through a SouthIndian couple visited me. And she helped me to finish up very nicely. I think the effect of the "che-yyi" is substantial. Katta Murty. From vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu Mon Nov 13 21:36:26 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 21:36:22 -0600; AA14784 Received: from students.wisc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 21:36:19 -0600 Received: from [144.92.181.76] by audumla.students.wisc.edu; id VAA26719; 8.6.9W/42; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 21:36:14 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:38:25 -1200 To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu (Velcheru Narayana Rao) Subject: Re: A "question" on Punctuation Krishna garu: Your question about puncuation. Old Telugu texts do not have punctation marks, the way we use them to day. There were metrical marks, like a mark indicating the place of yati on a verse line, and an indicator of the name of the meter before verse. European languaages do not have punctuation marks either, before the advent of printing. There was no need for them. Punctuation marks are aids to reading - meant for people untrained in reading texts or for people reading a text for the first time. Before the printing press, texts were read ( which always meant reading aloud, there was no silent reading before the printing press) to an audience by a trined reader-performer. Such a person knew the text, its style of reading and all the "marks" of punctuation and rendition by heart. Such a person did not need punctuation marks on the text itself. In any case, the few punctuation marks that appear' on a printed page now would have been wholly inadequate to cover the range of vocal variations and styles of utterences needed for performing the metrical text before the pre-printing days. Printing press changed this picture. It made the text availabe to people toally untrained to read it. Further more, it generated a new genre of writing, called prose, closer to the ordinary sentece structure of spoken communication. Reading such a thing was both easy and difficult. Easy because the nature of the text did not require elaborate training in performance. Diffcicult because, reading it for the first time was still open to ambiguities, especially if there is no way of predicting early enough in the progres of a sentence, where to pause, and if it is a question an exclamtion or a statement. Marks of punctuation were invented as way of making the printed texts "user-friendly" to use a recent phrase. Telugu, like many other Indian languages, was introduced to print much later than Europe. Most print styles in Telugu were adopated from European experience. Thus the borrowing of punctation marks. Even to day, our culture is still largely an oral cuture. We do not totally depend upon the printed word for communication and education. Most people know how to speak and read mostly by oral training in the family/community before independently reading a printed book.We do not seem to depend on punctuation marks as much as a wester-educated person is in reading a page. we do not mind if an inerrogative senctence ends with a period and not with a question mark. Often we do not even mind when a setence does not carry a period at the end. Punctuation errors are not frowned upon as much as errors in letters. In fact we do not have a coherent method of punctuation for Telugu - our adaptation of English punctuation is haphazrd and inadequate. But we still seem to read our book all right, at least we pretend we do. One explanation why we do not have Telugu book without printer's errors is that we are not as badly hurt by them as for example a reader in the western countries, where almost all their education has to come from a printed book. But this is only an anthropological explantion. ( In fact the other- sociological and political reasons are worth discussing: Why do'not we have error-free printing in Telugu even after more than two hundred years of history of priting? Why was it that books printed fifty years ago were more carefully proof-read than books printed these days? Our printing standars improved technologically, we have color printing offset production, computerized typesetting and all those expensive things but the accuracy of text has deteriorated so badly that even scholalry work by university presses are published with shaby errors.) In any case punctuation is a development of print culture. As for the actual words for punctuation, we borrowed the words from English like we did for motor car radio etc. There are a few pedantic translations too, again like there are for motor car and radio etc. From sreeni@ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de Tue Nov 14 10:35:18 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 10:35:14 -0600; AA00244 Received: from ktpsp2.uni-paderborn.de by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 10:33:51 -0600 Received: (from sreeni@localhost) by ktpsp2.uni-paderborn.de (8.6.12/8.6.10) id RAA27903 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:33:36 +0100 From: Sreenivas Paruchuri Message-Id: <199511141633.RAA27903@ktpsp2.uni-paderborn.de> Subject: Re: A "question" on Punctuation To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:33:35 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: from "Velcheru Narayana Rao" at Nov 13, 95 10:38:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4166 Prof. naaraayaNaraavugaaru has already answered kRshNa kandaaDai's question in detail. I personaly learnt a lot from the message. What I write/append below are some of my personal experiences in reading Telugu texts without punctuation, and the mails I exchanged with an ex-SCITer in the past. In 1984/1985 a Telugu translation of vishNu Sarma's _panchatantramu_ was published, where the author wrote the entire text without using any punctuation marks, and caused quite a furore in the literary reviews. The unfortunate part was that all the reviewers were n't (?) aware that in olden days there was really NO punctuation, and criticised the author for his unique way of writing. Instead of saying that this could create problems for the readers not well versed in reading Telugu texts, they blamed the author for introducing a new approach. Wheres the new approach here? Over the years I showed it to many people and asked them to read and tell their opinion, whether they had any difficulty in following/understanding the text. So far no one had complained. I should also say that all these readers had higher education (i.e. Batchelors or Masters degree). Probably I should show that book to school going children and note what they say. I quote excerpts from foreword, and his reply to one particular review in aandhra jyOti (18 March 1985). reply below: telugu bhaashalO viraamaadi chihnamulu lEvu anduvalana viraamaadi chihnamulu peTTalEdu telugu bhaashalO viraamaadi chihnaalu lEvu ii gurtulu lEkunDa chakkani arthaannicchi aanandaanni kaliginchE Sakti telugu bhaashaku unnadi anduvalla ii pustakamlO ekkaDa E vidhamaina aDDukaTTalu vEyalEdani vinnavinchu kunTunnavaaDa telugu bhaashalO anaadinunDi unna vishayaanni telugu bhaashayokka Saktini andaanni niroopinchuTaku cheppi induku lakshyamu ii pustakamulO oka prakriya pravESapeTTinaanu Probably the above book (in prose) by vEmulapalli umaamahESwararaavu is the only work in the past 3-5 decades which attempts to present Telugu, as it used to be; i.e. without punctuation. Are there any other works? In school days we used to be asked to read the text from "non-detailed" text books aloud (Every one used to read a paragraph each.). In the first reading the punctuation marks did n't help much (IMO did n't help at all!) and later you did n't need them. I would like to hear the members opinions on this topic. > Telugu, like many other Indian languages, was introduced to print much > later than Europe. Most print styles in Telugu were adopated from European > experience. BTW, what was the first printed book in Telugu, written by a Telugu? I knew it before. It was a travelogue on the author's journey to Benares, published in the first quarter of 19th century. Theres a very informative article on this topic in aandhra jyOti's _rajata kamalam_ (1987). Does anyone have a copy of it off-hand? The first book printed in Telugu is Bible. > sociological, political .... > hundred years of history of priting? Why was it that books printed fifty > years ago were more carefully proof-read than books printed these days? Our > printing standars improved technologically, we have color printing offset This is an excellant topic to be discussed in detail. While talking about the careful proof-reading in earlier days, I recall my childhood days, visiting two publishing houses (with printing presses in house, both don't exist any more :-() in Tenali with my father, where many of his colleagues, and other literary lovers used to assemble. The proof-readers were well versed (for todays standards) in literary matters. It was n't a well paid job either, and the technology was primitive (most of them used to have very thick glasses, working in very poor conditions). I have n't come across any "mudraaraakshasaalu" in vaaviLLa's, baalasaraswato book depot (ONLY those good old ones!!), venkaTa ramaNa's etc. But today as naaraayaNaraavugaaru said the texts are in poor quality. As pillamar''r''i raamakRshNagaaru once wrote (on SCIT), I also plan to dedicate some time in proof-reading and bringing the mistakes to the publishers attention in near future. Regards, Sreenivas From cjampala@dayton.net Tue Nov 14 11:30:16 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 11:30:14 -0600; AA01507 Received: from orac.dayton.net by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 11:30:12 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net by dayton.net with SMTP id AA16720 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 14 Nov 1995 12:21:01 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 12:20:59 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: A "question" on Punctuation In-Reply-To: <199511141633.RAA27903@ktpsp2.uni-paderborn.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think that this is an interesting topic worth further elucidation. I have a few pet peeves /concerns that I would enumerate in a later post. On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Sreenivas Paruchuri wrote: > > BTW, what was the first printed book in Telugu, written by a Telugu? I knew > it before. It was a travelogue on the author's journey to Benares, published > in the first quarter of 19th century. Theres a very informative article on > this topic in aandhra jyOti's _rajata kamalam_ (1987). Does anyone have a > copy of it off-hand? The first book printed in Telugu is Bible. > The book Srinivas is referring to is 'Enugula veeraaswaamayya' gaari 'kaaSidESa yaatra'. The book is recently reprinted and I have a copy. I will check about the exact title. I am not sure that it is the first book ever printed in Telugu by a Telugu. More about the rest later. --- V. Chowdary Jampala From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Tue Nov 14 11:35:03 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 11:35:01 -0600; AA01573 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 11:34:59 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 12:35:22 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: galpika, revisited Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-Id: <9511141235.aa14836@HEL4.ARL.MIL> thinking aloud.... EdO cinema-lO DailAgu: idi katha kAdu brother, jeevitam! anTE, jeevitam nijamanee, katha kalpitamnee - right! rAmAyaNam, mahA bhAratam 'kathalu' kAvu anukunE rOjullO, peddana manu caritra rAstU, mari evarni uddESincO, 'kEvala kalpanA kathalu kRtrima ratnamulu' - annADu. On the same lines viswanAtha says that his father commanded him (tA cEsina tanDri yAj~nayunu, jeevuni vEdana Ekamai) to write rAmacandruni katha, instead of kaTTu kathalu, which are 'vRthAyAsamu', neither 'aihikamu', nor 'paramu'. anTE, katha-ku, kalpitamu anna viSEshaNAnni vADaccani kadA! anTE nijamaina kathalU, kalpitAlU ani renDu rakAlu unDaccu. cinna kathanu kathAnika anI, kalpitamaina kathAnikanu 'kalpika' (shortened version) anTE? I thought it may be obvious, but as no one has said it, it is either not, or is so obvious that it isn't worth mentioning. There are words that suggest their meaning themselves. (There is a word for such words)*. I thought that 'galpika' is such a word. If koDavaTiganTi coined the word, does he mean that it is short enough to be taken in a gulp? Several posts have mentioned that these short stories are usually the kind that make you think, ponder, uncomfortable,... Does a gulp fit that description! Isn't it close to 'biting more than you can chew'? Would anyone who had a 'big gulp' verify? Sometimes words acquire shades and layers of meaning than their originators ever imagined them to be! Is this one such a word? * This was started long time ago, before Suresh etal discussed 'onomaetopoeic words' Ramakrishna From dasigi@shu.sacredheart.edu Tue Nov 14 12:18:30 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 12:18:28 -0600; AA02385 Received: from shu.sacredheart.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 12:18:22 -0600 Received: by shu.sacredheart.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA19813; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 13:18:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 13:18:07 -0500 From: dasigi@shu.sacredheart.edu (Venu Dasigi) Message-Id: <9511141818.AA19813@shu.sacredheart.edu> To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: A "question" on Punctuation A couple of thoughts (not well thought out, though, being reported quickly): 1. There is perhaps some weight in the "argument" that Telugu doesn't need punctuation marks, as has been pointed out by Sri Sreenivas Paruchuri. I would add that English NEEDS punctuation marks, as in "The man, whom we had seen speaking at the meeting the other day, is the Education Minister." It does seem, however, that the reason why Telugu "doesn't need" punctuation as badly as does English might not be the "expressive power" of the language. What I mean is, one would translate the above example English sentence as something like, "manam aa rOju sabhalO okaayana maaTlaaDaDam chooSaamu kadaa. atanu vidyaa Saakha mantriTa." The punctuation in this sentence is perhaps superfluous, because of the way it is broken up into two sentences. A somewhat more literal translation, "manam aa rOju evarinaitae sabhalO maTlaaDaDam chooSaamO, aayana ...", generally sounds awkward in Telugu. So my hunch is it is perhaps not the expressive power of Telugu, but the need to break sentences up (so as to make them not sound awkward) might be the reason why Telugu can work without punctuation. 2. Actually, there is another theory/hypothesis one could propose, which directly contradicts what I said above. (Let me be my worst critic, what the heck!) Languages are often classified as SOV languages, SVO languages, etc. The S, O and V stand for Subject, Object and Verb, or rather their relative order in normal assertive sentences. English is an SVO language because in most normal English sentences the subject comes first, followed by the verb and then the object, e.g., "The girl ate the apple." Telugu is, as it turns out, an SOV language, e.g., "aa ammaayi apilu tindi" (although one very nice feature of Telugu grammatical structure is that the word order is essentially free; SOV is the commonly preferred order). I wonder if the relative lack of dependence on punctuation has something to do with the SOV order in Telugu (or even the flexibility that stems from the free word order). Any comments? Actually all Indian languages that I have ever been exposed to (e.g., Telugu, Hindi, Oriya, Tamil, Kannada, Marathi, etc.) are SOV languages, as are some other Asian languages, e.g., Japanese. (More on the connection between Telugu and Japanese later...) --- Venu Dasigi (dasigi@shu.sacredheart.edu) From prasad@grove.ufl.EDU Tue Nov 14 14:48:39 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 14:48:37 -0600; AA04964 Received: from mail.grove.ufl.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 14:48:35 -0600 Received: from palm (palm [128.227.8.11]) by mail.grove.ufl.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA19646 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 15:49:44 -0500 Received: (prasad@localhost) by palm.grove.ufl.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id KAA24441; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 10:58:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 10:58:52 -0500 (EST) From: Kanaka P Saripalli X-Sender: prasad@palm To: Telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Archiving Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some of the discussions on Telusa turn out to be of lasting value. I request the editors to consider archiving the contents in some form on a selective basis. From palaka@simon.wustl.edu Tue Nov 14 18:09:04 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 18:09:02 -0600; AA08241 Received: from wugate.wustl.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 18:09:00 -0600 Received: from simon.wustl.edu by wugate.wustl.edu (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA06293 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:08:38 -0600 From: palaka@simon.wustl.edu Message-Id: <199511150008.SAA06293@wugate.wustl.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: wugate.wustl.edu: daemon owned process doing -bs Received: from simon.wustl.edu by wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 18:08:59 CST Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 18:08:59 CST To: "telusa@cs.wisc.edu"@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: re: punctuation in telugu I am trying to add my 2 n.p. to the two "viccu roopaayalu" submitted by prof. VN Rao and Paruchuri Srinivas. In not needing punctuation, telugu may be a close relative of sanskrit. In sanskrit, sentences don't need punctuation; in fact, the words can be jumbled without spoiling the meaning. I believe this is due to the fact that each word in a sentence has a modifier sitting on it, which makes it obvious as to where the word belongs and what the relationship with the rest of the sentence is. In telugu (or at least spoken telugu) we see the same phenomenon. We have a way of indicating what comes next in the sentence and so on - without requiring punctuation. A small example for the kind of cues we use: english: Rama, Krishna and Gopal went to the temple. telugu : raamuDoo krishnuDoo mariyoo gOpaaluDoo guDiki veLLaaru. In English, unless "Rama" is followed by a comma, the reader can not guess that there are more names to come. Where as in the telugu sentence, the "oo" on raamuDu makes it clear that there are more names to follow. As Smt. MuppaaLLa Ranganayakamma complains in her "vaaDuka bhaashalOnE wraastunnaamaa?", even though we have such nice features in our spoken language, they are not retained in (sloppily) written telugu. That is, we often have to read sentences such as: "raamuDu, krishnuDu mariyoo gOpaaluDu vastunnaaru". Such writing makes english-style punctuation mandatory and even with punctuation the writing is not as intuitive as the spoken language (telugu). on a related question, why do we see more typos in current day telugu? i don't think there are any profound reasons except that with the rapidly increasing importance of english in the work place, telugu is taking a backseat in students' curricula and the telugu proficiency may be dropping in general. i can conjecture another reason: the publishing industry has partly moved to our capital and the "hyderabadi telugu" may be showing up via the local compositors (sp?). (It is just my "opinion" that hyderabadis are less proficient in telugu than their counterparts from coastal cities. ) Yet another reason is publishers are just sloppier. regards, - rao From STADIGAD@us.oracle.com Tue Nov 14 18:47:17 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 18:47:15 -0600; AA08621 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 18:47:13 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id QAA08499; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 16:47:12 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA23350; Tue, 14 Nov 95 16:48:26 PST Message-Id: <9511150048.AA23350@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 14 Nov 95 16:43:25 -0800 From: "STADIGAD.US.ORACLE.COM" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: punctuation and Telugu/Sanskrit. Mime-Version: 1.0 I haven't got much to add apart from confirming that we needed no punctuation marks when building Sanskrit lit. and like wise in Telugu. There is a style called `maNipravALA' which is known form long drawn prose compositions where sentancial forms go on to even several pages. For example, in kAdambari, we see it starts as Asee daSesha narapati sirah, samabhyarchita SASAnah, kartA mahAscharyaNAm, ...... .................................................... ................................................... ................................................... ............[ pages of text continues ] ............ ................................................... .................................rAjA SoodrakOnamah In mahAbhAratam and other old classicals,( for eg: gajEndramOksha gadya in bhAgavatam ) we see this kind of style. In modern classics, say SeetarAmAnjaNEya SamvAdam by paraSurAma- pantula lingamoorthi gurumoorthi, the kailASa varNana is also in this stylAe. For those, well versed in the language, these styles never posed problem. Infact, the problem in reading Telugu classics is not comming because of punctuations ( - the lack of them, I mean ) but is because of falling vocabulary in currency. For eg, one of my great grand fathers has composed the kAvya `SrigAra SAkuntalam' a nirOstya, accha-tenugu work. I can't simply enjoy the book. Not because, it is not beautiful, it is because, I do not have adequate vocabulary. Now, then who wishes to improve the Telugu vocabulary, at the expense of other important material like sciences and maths. Also, we must learn 3 languages, so some time is lost to English and even to Hindi. And remember, we are adding most modern stuff in school Telugu books, so older day Telugu is covered sparingly. So, the crux of the problem is not punctuation, it is out vocabulary. -Syamala Rao ~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Nov 14 21:08:53 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 21:08:50 -0600; AA10069 Received: from students.wisc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 21:08:49 -0600 Received: from [144.92.181.99] by audumla.students.wisc.edu; id VAA56993; 8.6.9W/42; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:08:44 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 10:10:56 -1200 To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu (Velcheru Narayana Rao) Subject: re: punctuation in telugu To all the friends who actively partcipated in the discusion on punctuation. I enjoyed the discussion. I afraid a misreading of the situation crept into our discussion. It is wrong to think Telugu does not NEED punctuation as much as English does.There is nothing in the nature of Telugu, it's syntax or accent patterns, that exempts the language from the requirements of punctuation. All languages, to the extent they are to be read in print, need punctuation and Telugu is no exception. Old texts in all languges did not need punctuation because the reader was trained to read them without punctuational help. That sitution does not continue in the age of print. In other words, need of punctuation is not language-related. It is related to the level of development of printed books. Some one mentioned Kadambari in Sanskrit with its proverbially long sentences, and the gadya sections in Telugu Bhagavata. As all old texts, these texts do not have punctuation marks. But you should be trianed to read them - in other words it's performer's job. The style of these books is similar to speech, which does not need punctuation "marks".In speech, your voice does the job of punctuating the sentences. Telugu prose written in recent books and essays is in a state of confusion - it is somewhere between a print style and speech style. In the absence of a strong need for developing a standard language for intellectual communication, Telugu is largely in the hands of creative writers. A large part of Telugu publications in any given year are novels, short stories, poems. Without a strong inellectual community to back it, Telugu does not have much of a chance to develop a good modern written style with all the needs of punctuation, word-spacing spelling- standardization properly taken care of. VNR From vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Nov 14 21:32:37 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 21:32:35 -0600; AA10402 Received: from students.wisc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 21:32:34 -0600 Received: from [144.92.181.99] by audumla.students.wisc.edu; id VAA06958; 8.6.9W/42; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:32:30 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 10:34:41 -1200 To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu (Velcheru Narayana Rao) Subject: Re: A "question" on Punctuation Srinivas garu: I am delighted at your erudtion in bringing to our attention a book without punctuations published in this day and age. Also, for your quoting from reviews of the book. I will try to track the book in our library here. But thanks for the citation. Also I noted with great joy a referene to Sitaramanjaneyasamvadam by Parusurama pantula Lingamurti gurmurti. Thanks to Syamala Rao garu for this wonderful memory. I have to get a hold of this book, too. Thanks to both of you. VNR From juvvadi@allegra.att.com Wed Nov 15 09:30:27 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 09:30:13 -0600; AA20726 Message-Id: <9511151530.AA21166@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from ns.research.att.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 09:30:09 -0600 Received: by research.att.com; Wed Nov 15 10:29 EST 1995 Received: from juvvadi.tempo.att.com by allegra.tempo.att.com; id AA11674; Wed, 15 Nov 95 10:29:50 EST Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 10:26:15 EST From: juvvadi@allegra.att.com (Ramana Juvvadi) To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu In-Reply-To: <199511150008.SAA06293@wugate.wustl.edu> (palaka@simon.wustl.edu) Subject: re: punctuation in telugu One nasty problem in writing a spell checker for telugu is that there is no standard way to provide spacing between words. Consider 1. ekkaDanunchi vastunnaavu? 2. ekkaDa nunchi vastunnaavu? Another problem is counting the modifiers of a words. Once I tried to list out the variants of the verb "cheppu" which would be legal spellings. I remember listing out no less than 60! For example consider cheppee cheppaka cheppE aa maaTalO cheppalEni cheppagaraani bhaavaalu ennennO After all that I wasn't sure I covered everything. I am not sure how much research have linguists done on this. If nothing has been done I think it would be a good topic for an aspiring linguist! Ramana From OU17023@deere.com Wed Nov 15 11:45:11 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:45:09 -0600; AA22930 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:45:05 -0600 Received: from gateway.deere.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzpzi16216; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 12:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by gateway.deere.com; id LAA01200; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 11:41:45 -0600 Received: from deere.com(192.43.1.3) by gateway.deere.com via smap (g3.0.1) id xma001183; Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:41:38 -0600 Received: by deere.dx.deere.com (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA09371; Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:41:45 CST Received: from TCP30.DX.DEERE.COM (tcp30-50.dx.deere.com) by deere.dx.deere.com (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA09365; Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:41:44 CST Received: by TCP30.DX.DEERE.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L380P6) id 944240110095319FDACDXX21; 15 Nov 1995 11:40:11 GMT Message-Id: Date: 15 Nov 1995 11:40:11 GMT From: "OU17023" Subject: Re: punctuation in telugu Comment: MEMO 11.15.95 11.40 Apparently-To: telusa@cs.wisc.edu namastE thanks very much for all those who cleared my doubt about punctuation in the written telugu some of them opined that telugu because of its flexibility doesnt need any punctuation but i have my own comments on this punctuation may not be necessary in any language be it telugu sanskrit or english be it printed or written but definitely it expresses the idea of the writer more clearly without any ambiguities (Oops!! Suddenly all the puctuation keys on my keyboard stopped working) Hope all of you did understand my above paragraph without any punctuation. Didn't you? What I am trying to say is, whether it is with punctaution or without, we are, since childhood, taught to read and understand the text according to the context (sandarbhAnusAramgA artham chEsukOvaDam nerchukunnAm). We very well know, in most of the cases, what the context is, so we read it accordingly. If not, we don't mind reading a few sentences back and forthd to get the exact meaning. So we don't feel the need for punctuation. And same is the case with our old written telugu (both prose and poetry). I still doubt if we have read and understood per se whatever our old writers/poets wanted to express. Had there been any punctuation, we would have got their meanings more lucidly. There are many discussions/arguments about the meanings of many of our old padyAlu/pATalu. To quote an example, just now, I read a question in the Ghantasala list (most of you must have read it), why SPB in the movie sAgarasangamam, while reciting the padyam (I dont remember the starting lines) broke down the word pArvatIparamESvaraM and recited it as pArvatIpa ramESvaram. One of my friends explained that "when it is broken down it means mahAvishNu (rama+ISvara?). That's what, in fact, the idea of the poet was (was it kALidAsu?)". (Any comments on this?). Many knowledgeable readers would have understood it anyway. But, definitely the punctuation would have helped the other not-so-intelligent ones in interpreting this other meaning. Today we are lucky enough to have many technological advances like computers. That doesn't mean that we are not going to accept them in our present day culture saying that we don't need them because our elders never had them but still they were successful. (Am I going too much?) Same with punctuation too. Let me end this with another example. Today SrI Ramana mentioned about lacking of any standards in breaking telugu words while writing. This reminded me of one "question" my brother used to read for his 5th or 6th standard exams long long ago. He used to read it as "grAmamuna sabbu pani yEmi?" (What's the work of a soap in a village?) In fact, it was supposed to be "grAma munasabu pani yEmi?". I don't blame him because there was no spacing at all in the whole word. So he interpreted and read in his own way. Thanks and Regards Krishna Kandadai From vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu Wed Nov 15 12:56:45 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 12:56:39 -0600; AA23941 Received: from students.wisc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 12:56:38 -0600 Received: from [144.92.181.99] by audumla.students.wisc.edu; id MAA36979; 8.6.9W/42; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 12:56:33 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 01:58:45 -1200 To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu (Velcheru Narayana Rao) Subject: re: punctuation in telugu Dear Ramana garu: You put your finger on a problem which should bothered lot of our scholars. Word spacing in Telugu is not a grammatical requirement. Our printed books use spaces only to break the monotony of continuous syllables; as an aesthetic feature. The reason for not requiring spaces bewen words _ whatever a word menas - is simple. Telugu orthography composes a syllable as an independent unit and requires space between syllbale and syllable. Since our writing is syllabic, unlike English, no confusion occurs from lack of word spacing. There is no acceptable definition of a word in Telugu. All we can do at this stage is to standaradize spelling to determine the syllabic structure of an independent unit of utterance. For example NADUSTUNNANU is an independent unit of utterence, even though it is not a word. A unit of utterence would include all the sandhis and other phonological transformations within an utterance. Such a goal of standaradizing the utterances first might make making a spell checker feasible. Before you chesk the spelling you hould have an understanding what is the spelling. to account for every possible way of writing as is practiced to day may require an unrealistically huge program, and might even be impossible. Andand Kshore and Kanneganti have done some work in this area. They might have more practical solutions to offer. VNR From narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Wed Nov 15 13:02:37 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 13:02:35 -0600; AA24088 Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 13:02:33 -0600 Received: from [144.118.12.138] (spray1.coe.drexel.edu [144.118.12.138]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA01426 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 14:00:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 14:00:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199511151900.OAA01426@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu From: narayans@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Nasy Sankagiri) Subject: Re: punctuation in telugu >There are many discussions/arguments about the meanings of many of our >old padyAlu/pATalu. To quote an example, just now, I read a question >in the Ghantasala list (most of you must have read it), why SPB in the >movie sAgarasangamam, while reciting the padyam (I dont remember the >starting lines) broke down the word pArvatIparamESvaraM and recited it >as pArvatIpa ramESvaram. One of my friends explained that "when it is >broken down it means mahAvishNu (rama+ISvara?). That's what, in fact, >the idea of the poet was (was it kALidAsu?)". (Any comments on this?). >Many knowledgeable readers would have understood it anyway. But, >definitely the punctuation would have helped the other >not-so-intelligent ones in interpreting this other meaning. > This is the explanation I heard from our Sanskrit teacher in IITK: The SlOkam was recited a 'paarvatee paramESwarau' for a long time. (I think this SlOkam figures as an invocation in kaaLidaasu's kumaarasambhavam). The controversy was this. jagatat pitarau, vandE paarvatee paramESwarau The phrase 'pitarau' is in dual number, meaning 'to the two fathers of the world'. Then the following phrase contradicts this by quoting a woman (paarvati). How can paaravti be a father of the world? So the common man consoled himself that the poet meant parents, and not fathers when he said 'pitarau'. Then, some wise guy came to the rescue of kaaLidaasu: he said kaaLidaasu is not an idiot to write 'pitarau' when he wants to say parents; he would have said 'maataa pitarau' or some such thing. In this case, he means exactly what he says: 'to the two fathers of the world, namely husband of paarvati, and husband of rama' -> hence the split 'paarvateepa ramESwarau' Nasy From vvadlamani@vnet.IBM.COM Wed Nov 15 13:26:39 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 13:26:35 -0600; AA24479 Message-Id: <9511151926.AA26986@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from vnet.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 13:26:33 -0600 Received: from ATLVM1.VNET.IBM.COM by vnet.IBM.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1430; Wed, 15 Nov 95 14:26:15 EST Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 14:26:15 EST From: vvadlamani@vnet.IBM.COM To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: re: punctuation in telugu *** Reply to note of 11/15/95 13:07 From: Viswanath Vadlamani Subject: re: punctuation in telugu In article > Message-ID: > vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu (Velcheru Narayana Rao) writes >it is somewhere between a print style and speech style. In the absence >strong need for developing a standard language for intellectual > communication, Telugu is largely in the hands of creative writers. A I fail to understand why Mr. Rao is lamenting the issue of a language evolving, especially as he himself claims, in the hands of creative writers. >part of Telugu publications in any given year are novels, short stories, >poems.Without a strong inellectual community to back it, Telugu does not >have much of a chance to develop a good modern writen style with all the > This really takes the cake. If novels, short stories and poems are the hindrances to the development of a "MODERN WRITTEN STYLE", then pray tell us what is it you are intending to do with a language developed with the backing of "INTELLECTUAL COMMUNITY". ( unless of course it is a programming language ) I am sorry if I offended you Mr. Rao, but such statements are condescending in tone and percieved intent. It is a very bad idea to decry creativity and confine it among the mythical walls of a "MODERN WRITTEN STYLE" as defined by "INTELLECTUALS". It is true that novels, short stories and poems are being written and published in greater numbers recently. If so this speaks well of the language - TELUGU. It is also true that an organized methodology for a language needs to be present, for all the right reasons, and I certainly agree with you on that. I hope you take my criticism in the right sprit. Regards, Viswanath Vadlamani -- ___________________________________________________________ | | Vish Vadlamani | v v | IBM - FT Networking | v v | | v | vvadlamani@VNET.IBM.COM | | ________________________________|_________________________| All opinions expressed are mine only and not those of IBM | or my employers. | __________________________________________________________| From rpidapa@advtech.uswest.com Wed Nov 15 15:09:43 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 15:09:42 -0600; AA26434 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 15:09:40 -0600 Received: from zeb.advtech.uswest.com (zeb.advtech.uswest.com [130.13.254.36]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA13303 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 14:09:38 -0700 (MST) Received: by zeb.advtech.uswest.com (advtech.uswest.com) id AA05150 (4.1/at-generic.11Feb92); Wed, 15 Nov 95 14:09:37 MST From: Rama Krishna Pidaparti Message-Id: <9511152109.AA05150@zeb.advtech.uswest.com> Subject: re: punctuation in telugu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 14:09:37 -0700 (MST) Reply-To: rpidapa@advtech.uswest.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Prof.Velcheru Narayana Rao garu wrote: > Subject: re: punctuation in telugu > To all the friends who actively partcipated in the discusion on punctuation. > It is wrong to think Telugu does not NEED punctuation as > much as English does.There is nothing in the nature of Telugu, it's syntax > or accent patterns, that exempts the language from the requirements of > punctuation. > All languages, to the extent they are to be read in print, need punctuation > and Telugu is no exception. > Old texts in all languges did not need punctuation because the reader was > trained to read them without punctuational help. That sitution does not > continue in the age of print. The above two statements seem to be contradictory. I am not sure I understand how change of media; tAllapatram to it's pulp :-) (paper) would contribute to this 'need for punctiation'. If old texts did not need it(punctuation) and the reader was trained to read without it(P)... how did this situation change in the age of print? > In other words, need of punctuation is not language-related. It is related > to the level of development of printed books. Could you please(when you find time) elaborate on what Venu suggested(SOV vs SVO languages), SOV(Sunject, Object, Verb) languages being more(apparently) freeform(in the order of words i.e.,) that might make one form better than the other w.r.t. this 'need for punctuation'. This may explain if style is a factor(and one form, eg., SOV provides better room for it). And I hope media isn't. > Some one mentioned Kadambari in Sanskrit with its proverbially long > sentences, and the gadya sections in Telugu Bhagavata. As all old texts, > these texts do not have punctuation marks. But you should be trianed to > read them - in other words it's performer's job. This(performer's job) is true for long sentences even when punctuated properly, independent of the language. Most legal lingo has this trait. Hence the high fees for the performer(and subsequent interpretation). :-) > VNR Regards, Ramakrishna. P(idaparti). From cjampala@dayton.net Wed Nov 15 16:14:08 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 16:14:06 -0600; AA27426 Received: from orac.dayton.net by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 16:14:03 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net by dayton.net with SMTP id AA09566 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:04:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:04:30 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: galpika, revisited In-Reply-To: <9511141235.aa14836@HEL4.ARL.MIL> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri wrote: > anTE, katha-ku, kalpitamu anna viSEshaNAnni vADaccani kadA! anTE > nijamaina kathalU, kalpitAlU ani renDu rakAlu unDaccu. cinna kathanu > kathAnika anI, kalpitamaina kathAnikanu 'kalpika' (shortened version) > anTE? > > I thought it may be obvious, but as no one has said it, it is either > not, or is so obvious that it isn't worth mentioning. There are words > that suggest their meaning themselves. (There is a word for such words)*. > I thought that 'galpika' is such a word. > I always thought of the 'ika' in galpika to denote its short length, and interpreted galpika to mean an 'ultrashort fantasy' or 'ultrashort fiction'. But, the question always remained why galpika for this free standing word in stead of kalpika?) > If koDavaTiganTi coined the word, does he mean that it is short enough > to be taken in a gulp? Several posts have mentioned that these short > stories are usually the kind that make you think, ponder, > uncomfortable,... Does a gulp fit that description! Isn't it close to > 'biting more than you can chew'? Would anyone who had a 'big gulp' > verify? koku is not known for coining telugingleesh words like that (muLLapooDi is a different matter, of course), particularly one with such a convoluted etymology. More over, almost every single piece that koku wrote: whether it was a one page galpika, fifty page pedda katha, or a 200 page novel, I found it to be the kind that will make me think, ponder, and occasionally uncomfortable. :-) As I said before, I am not sure who coined this word or when. It is my speculation that koku coined it in late 60s and early 70s for his one page satires in the 'Yuva' monthly. 'sketch' was another term used for such pieces. Regards. --- Chowdary Jampala From cjampala@dayton.net Wed Nov 15 16:37:53 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 16:37:50 -0600; AA27689 Received: from orac.dayton.net by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 16:37:48 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net by dayton.net with SMTP id AA10629 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:28:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:28:18 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: A "question" on Punctuation In-Reply-To: <9511141818.AA19813@shu.sacredheart.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I must admit that my punctuation and writing skills were not severely tested until I started scientific writing after coming to this country. I knew the rules as I learned them in school and fancied myself to be a competent writer until then. I came under the tutelage of two very good writers who instilled the importance of good punctuation and writing skills. I didn't have to use those skills in Telugu, until I became the co-editor of TANA Patrika two years ago. However, given the nature of TANA Patrika, which includes a lot of cutting and pasting, the skills were not tested as much Then, I became the editor-in-chief (another name for proof-reader-in-chief) for the 10th TANA Conference Souvenir. Suddenly, I was confronted with different styles of written Telugu usage that I had to fit into a single 'style'. I had some notions of what was right and what was not. But, when I tried to verify my notions of right and wrong by referring to the various works that I had available (Telugu newspapers, magazines, books, old and new texts), I realized that there is no 'standard' form of usage. Each writer and editor seems to be using things differently, sometimes in the same work. Some of this inconsistency may even be due to the compositors and proof readers themselves. The problem is particularly noticeable with word breaks, more so when using compound words or words joined together with a 'sandhi'. The appearance of the word on the printed page and the convenience of reading it probably has a lot more to do with how the word breaks are determined than a set of rules. I am inclined to think that the early newspapers should have had some type of indigenous guides to 'style' to ensure standardization within that newspaper. Does anybody know if that is true? Regards. --- V. Chowdary Jampala PS: I solved my proof-reader's dilemma by developing my own set of rules for that souvenir. From cjampala@dayton.net Wed Nov 15 16:41:33 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 16:41:30 -0600; AA27761 Received: from orac.dayton.net by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 16:41:28 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net by dayton.net with SMTP id AA10858 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:32:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:32:00 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Telugu for benefit and benificiary In-Reply-To: <9511141818.AA19813@shu.sacredheart.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sometime back there was a discussion about Telugu equivalents for some English words used in the Insurance business. I remember 'anubhOktam' for benifit and 'anubhOkta' for benificiary. How about 'laabham' or 'labdhi' for benifit and 'labhdidaaruDu' for benificiary? Regards. --- Chowdary Jampala From brao@pollux.usc.edu Wed Nov 15 17:31:29 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 17:31:27 -0600; AA28331 Received: from pollux.usc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 17:31:25 -0600 Received: (brao@localhost) by pollux.usc.edu (8.7.1/8.6.4) id PAA17458 for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:31:23 -0800 (PST) From: Bapa Rao Message-Id: <199511152331.PAA17458@pollux.usc.edu> Subject: Re: punctuation in telugu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:31:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9511151926.AA26986@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> from "vvadlamani@vnet.IBM.COM" at Nov 15, 95 02:26:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > *** Reply to note of 11/15/95 13:07 > From: Viswanath Vadlamani > Subject: re: punctuation in telugu > > In article > > Message-ID: > > vnrao@facstaff.wisc.edu (Velcheru Narayana Rao) > > writes > > > >it is somewhere between a print style and speech style. In the absence > >strong need for developing a standard language for intellectual > > > communication, Telugu is largely in the hands of creative writers. A > > I fail to understand why Mr. Rao is lamenting the issue of a language > evolving, especially as he himself claims, in the hands of creative > writers. VNR garu will no doubt respond for himself, but what I gathered from his note is that there is the need for a sort of "sishTa vyavahaarikam" narrative style standard that is accessible to non-creative types of writing (One aspect of creative writing by definition is that it could be innovative and idiosyncratic in style). There is such a standard, albeit in an informal sense, for English writing. Bapa Rao From STADIGAD@us.oracle.com Wed Nov 15 18:18:16 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 18:18:14 -0600; AA28867 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 18:18:12 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id QAA06024; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:18:11 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA19655; Wed, 15 Nov 95 16:19:26 PST Message-Id: <9511160019.AA19655@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 15 Nov 95 16:08:02 -0800 From: "STADIGAD.US.ORACLE.COM" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: punctuation for a change. Mime-Version: 1.0 So, far we are sailing with the idea that punctuation helps. No doubt. But, like any other typo.(like gramatical or mis- spelling a word etc.), punctuation mistakes could be drastic. I present two examples here. First. Some body wanted to hoist a banner wording: G O D I S N O W H E R E But, the actual banner, when rised read: G O D I S N O W H E R E Second. One king, who found to his horror that an innocent man was going to be hanged in minutes from now, has wanted to send a crisp and urgent message: H A N G H I M N O T , L E A V E H I M But insted he scribed, as fate would have it as: H A N G H I M , N O T L E A V E H I M And of course, commma killed the man! NOTE: Be ware of punctuation. It generally not where it is itended to be. [ For programmers: Be ware of comments, most of the times they are either wrong, misplaced, misleading or inadequate. Example from real life: xxxx xxxxx,xxxxx ; If every thing is ok xxxx xxxxx ; then do xxxxxxxx. Returns on failure only. xxxx xxxxx ; go to error. But we actually found the code listing in a debugging session as: xxxx xxxxx,xxxxx ; If every thing is ok xxxx xxxxx ; go to error. Beacause some body edited the code, not the comments.! One Mr. Kalyana Rao, unearthed this beauty and we stopped believing in comments blindly! Sorry for, SAkhAchankramaNam. ] - Syamala Rao ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Wed Nov 15 19:54:55 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 19:54:53 -0600; AA29706 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 95 19:54:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 20:55:25 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Cc: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" Subject: Welcome - No Flames Please! Organization: Message-Id: <9511152055.aa25697@HEL4.ARL.MIL> I haven't seen the articles posted in the last twentyfour hours or so, having changed to the Digest option for about a week. (Just unchanged it!) I am alerted by a group member that a hint of flames is creeping into some posts of late. Not having seen them for the reason cited above, I feel quite free to reiterate an important principle of this group - No Flames. We can post our ideas, opinions, and if others differ, let them. They can be wrong, and so can we! >From the topics discussed thus far in this group, I can't for the life of me, see any scope for a 'flaming' post. Nevertheless, I would strongly urge the group to pay particular attention to this issue. I am repeating the original "Welcoming" message here. We invite you to join us in a new adventure on the Information Highway. Welcome to Telusa?! Goals: "Telusa?" is a forum for TELe discussion of issues related to TELUgu SAhityam. Constructive critiques are OK. The scope of "sahityam" includes discussion of Telugu literary issues, including historical anecdotes about Telugu writers. By Telugu literature we mean the full range of topics from ancient to modern, classical to revolutionary, prose, poetry, drama, fiction, non fiction, essays, science writings, journalistic writings, writing style, issues related to standardization and translation (from other languages to Telugu as well as from Telugu to other languages). I would also keep discussions about (a) teaching Telugu as a second language and (b) bringing Telugu into the information age within the scope of these discussions. In short, keep the scope broad. The goal is enlighten, educate, or entertain. Ground Rules: Telugu politics, Telugu cinema (save the literary component), missing person inquiries, matrimonials, and the like are beyond the scope of this forum. The tone of the discussion should be civil and professional. There is no need to drag the discussion into the gutter. For practical reasons, the length of a posting should be limited. I suggest one to two screenfuls of material should be a typical length. Using "Reply" command should be minimized, unless it is essential to quote the original verbatim. Everyone who wants to post should compose the piece separately, review it for their own satisfaction, before rushing it to post. Like in print media, there should be some oversight on what is being posted. At least a minimum oversight to discourage uncivil behavior. The threat of an editorial prerogative should be sufficient to discourage misuse of an otherwise powerful medium. Instead of empty discussion on the Net, we should strive to use this medium to polish our thoughts, update our facts, and eventually become good at what we want to say and then try to capture the distilled thoughts in the form of things that can be captured in the print media. One thing I'd dearly like to see is to be able to post Telugu items in Telugu script (I am not opposed to RIT) and read them back in Telugu script on my screen without going through elaborate processing on my end. That will truly make this effort useful. V. Rao Vemuri University of California Ramakrishna Pillalamarri From parigim@STATE.MI.US Thu Nov 16 08:56:14 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 08:56:12 -0600; AA10707 Received: from dns.state.mi.us by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 08:54:25 -0600 Received: from STATE.MI.US (ngwsmtp.state.mi.us [167.240.253.6]) by dns.state.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16083 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:47:23 -0500 Received: from MI-Message_Server by STATE.MI.US with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:56:04 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:53:53 -0500 From: Mohan Parigi To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Welcome - No Flames Please! -Reply >One thing I'd dearly like to see is to be able to post Telugu items in >Telugu script (I am not opposed to RIT) and read them back in Telugu >script on my screen without going through elaborate processing on my >end. That will truly make this effort useful. That is visionary ! The possibility to read and write in telugu script in computing environment should constantly inspire us towards achieving that goal. I have seen in other non-english speaking countries, their pride in being able to conduct business in their native language. I am so glad that some of us are trying to evolve a standard telugu character set like RIT, ISCII; some are trying to develop new fonts like potana and so on. I think we are moving in that direction. The day we achieve this we make a point to people who think high-tech and telugu (I mean, native culture) are two divergent streams. They are not. It is possible to use telugu in a high-tech environment. Now back to a more mundane issue, I dont know how you folks read that text in RIT. I have to transcribe it into telugu by hand. I dont have any telugu font on my machine. I work in mostly in MS-windows environment. I welcome any suggestions on good software products that enable me to read/write telugu in MS-windows. Regards Parigi Madan From parigim@STATE.MI.US Thu Nov 16 09:28:58 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 09:28:55 -0600; AA10994 Received: from dns.state.mi.us by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 09:28:52 -0600 Received: from STATE.MI.US (ngwsmtp.state.mi.us [167.240.253.6]) by dns.state.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17172 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:21:54 -0500 Received: from MI-Message_Server by STATE.MI.US with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:30:36 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:28:12 -0500 From: Mohan Parigi To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Tools for chandassu >>> Ramana Juvvadi writes: >One nasty problem in writing a spell checker for telugu is that there is >no standard way to provide spacing between words. I agree. It is not only difficult to delimit the words, the word itself modifies into many forms. Through the ages, the same word also took many forms, like cEyudunu, cEstA etc. Nevertheless, in tools like RIT I presume we have the ability to decipher the syllables in a piece of writing. (in fact, kaTTa mUrty gAru simplifies the task by using an hyphen to delimit the syllables.) How about developing tools to verify chandassu ? This will be of enormous value when we archive the literature into electronic form. Regards Parigi Madan From nparinand@cas.org Thu Nov 16 10:13:18 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 10:11:57 -0600; AA11249 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 10:08:11 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:07:56 EST From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pa'ranandi lakshmii narasimham)) Message-Id: <9511161107.AA13763@cas.org> Subject: Tools for chandassu : Tools to write poems with Camdassu :-) To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Not inviting flames please! Going back to Sri Parigim's idea of developing tools to verify Camdassu - I wish there were tools to create poems on Ca'mdasa (Camdassu) grounds (rules or whatever). I don't think it is impossible in this day of BYTEARCHY. (FYI - My father used to tell me what his teacher, Prof. V.S. Krishna used to say in the class - "The days of ANARCHY are gone. MONARCHY is no more. TECHNARCHY is the present form of rule." This was in mid 30s. I add further - "TECHNARCHY is history. The present mystery is BYTEARCHY which breeds CHIPOPHILIA.") Any way - I see machines translating languages and machines deciphering voices and giving printed outputs in the desired languages. I see impossibilities the realities (especially in my area - information science). If someone comes up with a tool to write poems with Camdassu - I will use it and someone else can verify whether my tool has done it right. Then, you don't blame me if the pra'sa is not correct - blame my tool's inefficency! BTW - Did anyone read PaTa'Bi's Dozen PiDElu ra'ga'lu? That was also translated into Kannada. A lot said in a couple of lines about Camdassu in that Dozen PiDElu ra'ga'lu. --pa'lana ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ._~Y~_; HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF GENES HAVE ALREADY BEEN MAPPED! ' (* *) ^--\-/--^ @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+--------- pa'lana `__' {===} `__' nlp55@cas.org /_____\ AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY || || Chemical Abstracts Service _________N_|_|_P_________________________________________________________ From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Thu Nov 16 10:37:27 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 10:37:22 -0600; AA11566 Received: from [192.12.67.4] by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 10:37:20 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:35:45 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: punctuation, etc... Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-Id: <9511161135.aa17345@HEL4.ARL.MIL> Syamala Rao's two examples on punctuation, and how it changes the meaning of something drastically, reminded me of a poem attributed to SrInAtha, related (is this a proper use of the word here?) in a recent ashTAvadhAnam. sarwaj~na nAmadhEyamu SarwunakE, rAwu singa janapAlunakE, yurvin jellunu, takkoru sarwaj~nunDanuTa kukka sAmajamanuTE! The epithet "sarwaj~na - omniscient!" (the sychophantic praise knew no bounds then) properly belongs to Lord Siva (?) and King rAwu singa. Referring to anybody else with this name, is like calling a dog as an elephant. sarwaj~na nAmadhEyamu SarwunakE! rAwu singa janapAlunakE yurwin jellunu? takkoru sarwaj~nunDanuTa kukka sAmajamanuTE! The epithet "sarwaj~na - omniscient!" properly belongs only to Lord Siva. How can it possibly be applied to King rAwu singa? Calling anybody else by that name is akin to calling a dog as an elephant. A comment on Ramakrishna Pidaparti's musing on why suddenly the need for punctuation, when going from tALapatramu, to its variant, paper, possibly made from its pulp. I think Prof. Velcheru Narayana Rao alluded to this, albeit parenthetically. Palm leaf manuscripts were not mass produced. They were commissioned by people of means, and may even have been read to them. These are like personalized works. There was no standardization known or attempted. I myself, in these times, when transcribing an article for TANA Patrika, or something else, would break a word, based on my own "intuitive" rules, to save space, or to avoid spilling two lines of a story into the next page. When books were mass produced using printing presses, some amount of standardization happened, of necessity. Spaces between words became prominent. Exclamation and question mark signs were borrowed from English. At this time, usage of period, question mark, exclamation signs are quite acceptable, but the use of the remaining punctuation marks, such as comma, colon, semi-colon, dash are still far from uniformly understood or agreed to. (Lot of speculation here, that could stand some correction from the cognoscenti). muLLapUDi, rA.Vi. sAstri, mAdhavapeddi gOkhalE have written using a highly regional variants of telugu, for different reasons. However, an article in a journal such as bhArati, would be written by these very same people (as opposed to a story) in a language a bit more standard; I think. Prof. vEmuri Venkateswara Rao has harped on this matter of "standardi- zation" in many a forum. You can see references to it even in the welcoming message to this group. Asking for standardization need not necessarily be construed as damning the style of writers of short stories and novels. One would like to know how many of such authors would object to standardization of written language to some extent. BTW, occasionally I get a letter from my brother-in-law from Tenali, which takes several readings to be partially understood. It is written in the now archaic style, called "golusukaTTu". Each letter is connected to the next letter, and spaces between words are minimal, if present. So is the spacing between lines. It is the worst nightmare of a OCR developer for Telugu. Ramakrishna From juvvadi@allegra.att.com Thu Nov 16 10:41:59 1995 Received: from cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 10:41:56 -0600; AA11683 Message-Id: <9511161641.AA21981@cs.wisc.edu> Received: from ns.research.att.com by cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 10:41:53 -0600 Received: by research.att.com; Thu Nov 16 11:28 EST 1995 Received: from juvvadi.tempo.att.com by allegra.tempo.att.com; id AA24869; Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:28:46 EST Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:25:10 EST From: juvvadi@allegra.att.com (Ramana Juvvadi) To: telusa Subject: Some extensions to RIT --- Accented characters We might have to wait a long time before we can send a message in telugu and be confident that the other person will have the required software to read it. Meanwhile, I am proposing some extension to RIT to ease our pain in reading telugu in English. The extensions merely consist of using accented letters a i s. For example kavita! s kavita! na yuvakaSala nava piSala suma geetavaraNamls This transliteration scheme cuts down capital letters quite a bit. The problem is that it is not guranteed to work with every mail reader. Even more annoying some of the text editors like vi have no way of accepting accented characters as input. I read my mail through emacs so I have no problem. The people using mail readers and editors on PCs and Macs should have no problem reading it. If you are using 'elm' or simple mail on unix you are likely to run into problems. I am curious as to how many of you are able to read the above accented characters. In addition to accented a, e, and o there is a c with cedilla and n with an accent in ISO-8859-1. They can take care of our nasals an ottu cha. Unfortunately there are no accented l, r, t, s, and d. If they existed we could have done away with capitals altogether. Of course, it is easy to design a font with accented l,r,t,s, and d. But then we get into the problem of ensuring that every one has that font and can make it work with his mail reader. Ramana From panini@eri.uchsc.edu Thu Nov 16 11:20:35 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:20:33 -0600; AA12073 Received: from druid.UCHSC.EDU by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:20:30 -0600 Received: (from panini@localhost) by druid.uchsc.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA14128; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:18:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:18:43 -0700 (MST) From: Sankhavaram Panini X-Sender: panini@druid.uchsc.edu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: punctuation for a change. In-Reply-To: <9511160019.AA19655@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On 15 Nov 1995, STADIGAD.US.ORACLE.COM wrote: > So, far we are sailing with the idea that punctuation helps. > No doubt. But, like any other typo.(like gramatical or mis- > spelling a word etc.), punctuation mistakes could be drastic. > > G O D I S N O W H E R E > > G O D I S N O W H E R E > > H A N G H I M N O T , L E A V E H I M > > H A N G H I M , N O T L E A V E H I M > > > - Syamala Rao > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This reminds me of the lesson our high school telugu teacher taught us on the importance of punctuation (or at least proper pauses during reading) with the following example: "tummedaa, oka saari mOmetti chooDamani cheppavE raachilukatO" "tummedaa oka saari mOmetti, chooDamani cheppavE raachilukatO" Our teacher said that while every one sneezes with the head down, the person above is trying to show off! I was again reminded of this lesson while listening to the movie song: "jOru meedunnaavu tummedaa (jOru meedunnaavu, tummedaa!)" nanDoori raammOhana raavu (Editor of aandhra jyOti) gave the following example while discussing the importance of proper emphasis during reading: "ee aadhunika yugamlO okka bhartE sarvaswam anukunTE kudaradu." Regards, paaNini From panini@eri.uchsc.edu Thu Nov 16 11:30:06 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:30:04 -0600; AA12121 Received: from druid.UCHSC.EDU by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:30:02 -0600 Received: (from panini@localhost) by druid.uchsc.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA14635; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:28:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:28:21 -0700 (MST) From: Sankhavaram Panini X-Sender: panini@druid.uchsc.edu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Welcome - No Flames Please! In-Reply-To: <9511152055.aa25697@HEL4.ARL.MIL> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII namastE! While no one wants to see flames or a lack of civility (the kind prevalent on SCIT) in this discussion group, honest criticism or polite disagreement should not be suppressed. The purpose of the discussion is to let different view points to be expressed to that the members can think and make up their own minds on the issue being discussed. In this specific case, I thought that Viswanath Vadlamani did have a valid point that needs to be answered by Sree naaraayaNa ravu. Sree Vadlamani's writing style wasn't rude though he could have made his point more politely. Regards, paaNini From nparinand@cas.org Thu Nov 16 12:48:53 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 12:48:50 -0600; AA13049 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 12:48:48 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:48:44 EST From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pa'ranandi lakshmii narasimham)) Message-Id: <9511161348.AA15788@cas.org> Subject: EVOLUTION AND RETROGRESSIVE METAMORPHOSIS OF TELUGU LANGUAGE? To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu EVOLUTION OR RETROGRESSIVE METAMORPHOSIS OF TELUGU LANGUAGE? ----------------------------------------------------------- Evolution - is a phenomenon of change (progression) towards advancement (advanced stage), is a mechanism often seen or reasoned with certain background information (scientific evidence). The biological realm has had experienced this sort of natural phenomenon where in two categories of organisms arise often : (1) primitive and (2) advanced. The primitive species (organisms) were less efficient at adaptation and did not survive over the paleo time scale (geological time scale) and the advanced creatures survived, still evolved, and presumably have been evolving over millions of years. One of such is the human being and the Telugu man (icludes all sexes and ages) is an integral part of that too. Alongwith the biological evolution parallel to the geological time scale, the progression of other aspects of human life did (do) occur e.g. cultural evolution, social evolution, economic evolution, and technological evolution. Amidst those in the cultural evolution is the evolution of the language and Telugu language is for sure still evolving. One thing we learn in biological evolution is that "Reductionism does not mean that the organism is primitive but is at an advanced stage." To explain this briefly that the animal during the course of evolution might have a complicated strucutre but at later stages may possess reduced structure (e.g. Amphioxus). Here the reduced strucuture of an organ may facilitate the organism for a better survival in an efficient way. Are you asking a question "Why does this guy beat this evolution hammer on my forehead?" (no puncutuation in forehaed. If you want - split the fore head). Dear readers! Telugu language has reduced towords with advanced meanings and arrived at a zig-zag gibberish state. Some of us call that "Telugu language has been evolving with the speed of light - especially in the cinema industry hoc tempore". I say that it has reduced to simply facilitate better adaptability among all Telugu speaking people with ease and comfort without causing pedantic discomfort. What I say reduction is an advancement for others - just like what the evolutionary biologists cling on to! "ceDitE oka amdam" annaTlu - "Ununderstandable language is superior and sought after by many." The more gibberish it sounds, the more attraction the language causes - at least in Telugu movies of these days. Just examine below for yourself the Telugu of Today in the cine songs: 1) ciki ciki bam bam ciki ciki bam bam ciki ciki bam bam ciki ciki bam bam ciki ciki bam bam ciki ciki bam bam ji'Ti' rODDu mi'da' ciTTemma' ja'na' bettE lEni koTTamma' ciki ciki bam pa'm pa'm ciki ciki bam bam bam ciki bam ciki bam ............. ............. Dubi Dubi' Dubi' DooBi' Dubabba' Dubi Dubi Dubabba' ciki ciki bam What do this "ciki", "bam", "pa'm", "Dubi", and "Dubabba'" stand for? 2) bulli bulli lOkamumdi bujji bujji a'Ta vumdi jam jam pilla vaLLu gillu kumTu ka'LLa gajja a'DakumTe rim jim What are the meanings of "jim jim" and "rim jim"? 3) hoyya'rE hoyya'rE dEvuDanna' damDambeDta' Daivaranna' sala'm koDta' hoyya'rE hoyya'rE What is this "hoyya'rE?" 4) ceppana' vunna pani ceyyana' ka'sta pani nuvvu adaraham navvu mudaraham What are the meanings of these "adaraham" and "mudaraham"? 5) jamcaku caku a'namda'lE pomgE jamcaku caku samgi'ta'lE mOgE jamcaku caku amda'lennO rEgE jamcaku caku na'Tya'lennO sa'gE Well! This "jamcaku caku" is for all the 4 types like a'namdam, samgiitam, amdam, and na'Tyam. What a doblet? 6) sumdara' ka'mDaku samdaDE samdaDi ho ho ho ho amdukE birraDi ho ho ho ho ........ rabappa pabappa bapappa' rabappapa' Oh! "rabappa" - I see my abba' now! 7) jimgi caku ca' ciku jimgica' jimgi caku ca' ciku jimgica' baka ciku ciku ciku cooku ba'ciku ba'ciku ba'ciku ciku cookoo Gotten some highly evolved Telugu words here! Probably extrachromosomal plasmid like words gotten into our language - but happily floating around. 8) ca'mgu BaLa' Damgu sama' yamgu maja' Damku Dama' limku lima' pilla' pimga'Ni mOta' I can and can not figure out some of these words. May be some other dictionaries carry these words. The list is unending. I already exceeded the 2 screen limit. I don't intend to insult the writers of these songs or neither do I ridicule the singers. On the contrary, I am extremely happy to see how my language is evolving in a popular way - just like those antibiotic resistant gram negative bacteria in the hospitals! ----pa'lana ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rpidapa@advtech.uswest.com Thu Nov 16 13:31:15 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:31:12 -0600; AA13772 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:31:09 -0600 Received: from zeb.advtech.uswest.com (zeb.advtech.uswest.com [130.13.254.36]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA11272 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:31:02 -0700 (MST) Received: by zeb.advtech.uswest.com (advtech.uswest.com) id AA13630 (4.1/at-generic.11Feb92); Thu, 16 Nov 95 12:31:01 MST From: Rama Krishna Pidaparti Message-Id: <9511161931.AA13630@zeb.advtech.uswest.com> Subject: Typos/Punctuations To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:31:01 -0700 (MST) Reply-To: rpidapa@advtech.uswest.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Syamala Rao wrote: Subject: punctuation for a change. > So, far we are sailing with the idea that punctuation helps. > No doubt. But, like any other typo.(like gramatical or mis- > spelling a word etc.), punctuation mistakes could be drastic. > I present two examples here. > First. Some body wanted to hoist a banner wording: > G O D I S N O W H E R E > But, the actual banner, when rised read: > G O D I S N O W H E R E > Second. > > H A N G H I M N O T , L E A V E H I M > But insted he scribed, as fate would have it as: > H A N G H I M , N O T L E A V E H I M More of the examples.... THEM ASSES for THE MASSES and THE RAPIST for THERAPIST. The famous... 'rAmunithOka pivarnudu ...' Any way these are typos and/or problems with wrod breaking I guess. Regards, Ramakrishna. -- From juvvadi@allegra.att.com Thu Nov 16 13:33:43 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:33:42 -0600; AA13782 Message-Id: <9511161933.AA21409@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from ns.research.att.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:33:40 -0600 Received: by research.att.com; Thu Nov 16 14:30 EST 1995 Received: from juvvadi.tempo.att.com by allegra.tempo.att.com; id AA06035; Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:30:16 EST Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:26:39 EST From: juvvadi@allegra.att.com (Ramana Juvvadi) To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Some extensions to RIT --- Accented characters > kavita! s kavita! > na yuvakaSala nava piSala suma geetavaraNamls Oops! I sent this with accented a e o. They got converted to a,i, and s by the time the mail got back to me. That means somewhere along the line AT&T -->cs.wisc.edu -->AT&T there is a 7-bit network chopping off the most significant bit for the characters in the range 128-255. Non-techies please excuse me for the computer jargon. What this means is sending accented characters in mail is not possible at least for now. Ramana From cjampala@dayton.net Thu Nov 16 13:42:02 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:42:00 -0600; AA13856 Received: from orac.dayton.net by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:41:56 -0600 Received: from orac.dayton.net by dayton.net with SMTP id AA17153 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 16 Nov 1995 14:32:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 14:32:17 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Some extensions to RIT --- Accented characters In-Reply-To: <9511161641.AA21981@cs.wisc.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Ramana Juvvadi wrote: > > > We might have to wait a long time before we can send a message > in telugu and be confident that the other person will have the required > software to read it. Meanwhile, I am proposing some extension to RIT to ease > our pain in reading telugu in English. The extensions merely consist of > using accented letters a i s. For example > > kavita! s kavita! > na yuvakaSala nava piSala suma geetavaraNamls > > This transliteration scheme cuts down capital letters quite a bit. > The problem is that it is not guranteed to work with every mail > reader. Even more annoying some of the text editors like vi have no > way of accepting accented characters as input. I read my mail through > emacs so I have no problem. The people using mail readers and editors on > PCs and Macs should have no problem reading it. If you are using > 'elm' or simple mail on unix you are likely to run into problems. I > am curious as to how many of you are able to read the above accented > characters. > I think my mail reader showed a, i, s for what you probably meant as accented a,e, and o. Regards. --- Chowdary PS: Dr. dESikaachary just sent me a new version of his software ( a Windows based keyboard driver) to use with pOtana in Windows environment. I haven't used it yet, but it will apparently obviate the need for his earlier paaNini program (I felt paaNini was not user friendly). Unfortuantely, Dr. dESikaachari's program is not RIT compatible. From vvadlamani@vnet.IBM.COM Thu Nov 16 13:59:42 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:59:39 -0600; AA14053 Message-Id: <9511161959.AA22028@lucy.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from vnet.ibm.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:59:36 -0600 Received: from ATLVM1.VNET.IBM.COM by vnet.IBM.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6110; Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:59:16 EST Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:59:16 EST From: vvadlamani@vnet.IBM.COM To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: tammuDoo -- A Ghazal in Telugu *** Reply to note of 11/16/95 13:54 From: Viswanath Vadlamani Subject: tammuDoo -- A Ghazal in Telugu aadaab !! paiSh hai Ek aur Ghazal. tammuDoo kO political life kaa andaaz dEngE. mulaahizaah furmaayiyE. tammuDoo ________ poliTikal meeTingulu , elecTionla gOlalU sinimaa lO unnaTTulE kadaraa tammuDoo gaandhee gaari TOpeelU, mokkubaDi maaTalU kurcheekE pooja chestaaruraa tammuDoo ikkaDEmo sooTlU, televised speechulu manushulantaa okkaTE, gurthunchukO tammuDoo laksha roopaayila bahumatee, riTairumenTu gaaranTee raajya laxmi loTTery konaraa tammuDoo Regards, Viswanath Vadlamani -- ___________________________________________________________ | | Vish Vadlamani | v v | IBM - FT Networking | v v | | v | vvadlamani@VNET.IBM.COM | | ________________________________|_________________________| All opinions expressed are mine only and not those of IBM | or my employers. | __________________________________________________________| From KKONDAKA@us.oracle.com Thu Nov 16 14:11:44 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:11:42 -0600; AA14134 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:11:40 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id MAA13862; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:11:38 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA29664; Thu, 16 Nov 95 12:12:53 PST Message-Id: <9511162012.AA29664@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 16 Nov 95 09:36:45 -0800 From: "KKONDAKA.US.ORACLE.COM" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re:Tools for chandassu Mime-Version: 1.0 Parigi madan gaaru wrote : > How about > developing tools to verify chandassu ? This will be of enormous value > when we archive the literature into electronic form. In the absence of suresh, I wanted to let you know(some of the group members already know) that : he (surES kolichala) has already developed a tool for verifying chandassu. The tool can determine whether a padyam is "utpalamaala", "champakamaala", "mattEbham", or "Saardoolamu". Since the major job of identifying the gaNas(guruvu, laghuvulu) has already been done, it can be easily extended to identify the other types also. Krishna Kondaka From ari@Oakland.edu Thu Nov 16 15:46:14 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 15:46:12 -0600; AA16506 Received: from vela.acs.oakland.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 15:46:10 -0600 Received: (from ari@localhost) by vela.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id QAA16757; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:46:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:46:28 -0500 (EST) From: Sitaramayya Ari To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: EVOLUTION AND RETROGRESSIVE METAMORPHOSIS OF TELUGU LANGUAGE? In-Reply-To: <9511161348.AA15788@cas.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, PALANA wrote: > I am extremely happy to see how my language is evolving in a popular way just like those antibiotic resistant gram negative bacteria in the hospitals! ----pa'lana Palana gaaru, I had a good laugh at this. Couldn't resist saying that the songs you listed are culture-resistant just like those antibiotic-resistant bugs. Sitaramayya. From panini@eri.uchsc.edu Thu Nov 16 15:50:34 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 15:50:31 -0600; AA16553 Received: from druid.UCHSC.EDU by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 15:50:27 -0600 Received: (from panini@localhost) by druid.uchsc.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id OAA17507; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 14:48:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 14:48:46 -0700 (MST) From: Sankhavaram Panini X-Sender: panini@druid.uchsc.edu To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: EVOLUTION AND RETROGRESSIVE METAMORPHOSIS OF TELUGU LANGUAGE? In-Reply-To: <9511161348.AA15788@cas.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII namastE! I don't know about all other vocal gymnastics but the phrase "chaangu bhaLaa" in the final example (#8) is not new. annamayya used it in the song: chakkani talliki chaangu bhaLaa tana ~chakkera mOviki chaangu bhaLaa Regards, paaNini From STADIGAD@us.oracle.com Thu Nov 16 16:05:52 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 16:05:49 -0600; AA16987 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 16:05:47 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id OAA10888; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 14:05:46 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA18877; Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:06:43 PST Message-Id: <9511162206.AA18877@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 16 Nov 95 12:40:23 -0800 From: "STADIGAD.US.ORACLE.COM" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: naaradEndra samvaadam. Mime-Version: 1.0 [ naarada indrula pravESam ] ind: ecchaTi nuDi raaka mahatmaa? naa: bhoolOkamLo, suvarNa khanDamLO, manchi kammaTi telugu bhOjanam chEsi vastunnanu mahEndraa. ind: adEmi swaamee! bhoolOka sanchaaram ee kali kaalamLo nishiddham kadaa! naa: naraayaNa! naaku vidhi-nishEdhalEmiTi dEvarajaa! mee kaTTubaaTla siggOsiri. mundu bhojanam sangati vinavayya! yEnaa DE samayaana nEni janinan nOroora samRuddhamai naanaa Saaka subhakshya yukta ruchiraanna praaptiyE gaani aa haa naastyacchaTa naasti Saaka bahuthaa naastyushNataa naastyapoo pO naastyoudana sousThavamcha kRupayaa Bhoktavyaman vaakyamul ind: idi EdO vinna padyam maadirigaa undE! marE, aamuktamaalyadalOdi kadoo? aa nisTha nidhi gEha seema naDurE yaalinchinan mrOyu nen tE naageeDra Sayaanu puNya kadha lun divya prabanDhaanu san dhaana dhvaanamu naasti Saaka bahuthaa naastyushNataa naastyapoo pO naastyoudana sousThavamcha kRupayaa Bhoktavyaman maaTalun naa: akhsaraalaa. saakshaattu nee mukhatah raayala padyam keertincha baDDaaka, raayalaku swargaanubhavam puskalamE! ind: nEnEmee rayalanu bhoolOkaaniki neTTi vEyaDam lEdE! sari sari, mEmu kooDa telugu vindu ruchi choosi bahukaalamainadi! ekkaDa swaamee aa bhOjana saala? naa: needE aalasyam padavayya! suvarNa khanDamlO sree krishna dEva raaya hOTal ani undilE! nEnu maLLaa akkaDikE veLtunna. pada, kalisE pOdam. ind: mahabhaagyam! [ iddaroo niskramituru ] - o - -Syamala Rao ~~~~~~~~~~~~ From prasad@acm6.me.uiuc.edu Thu Nov 16 16:14:09 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 16:14:06 -0600; AA17114 Received: from acm6.me.uiuc.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 16:14:04 -0600 Received: by acm6.me.uiuc.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA03628; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:13:38 -0600 From: prasad@acm6.me.uiuc.edu (Prasad Chodavarapu) Message-Id: <9511162213.AA03628@acm6.me.uiuc.edu> Subject: chandhassu - software To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu (Telusa Group) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:13:38 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 707 that's great news for guys like me who have a tough time in chandOBhadda rachanalu. i recently came across "lakshaNa pUrNima", a very well written and comprehendible book on telugu vyAkaraNam. it is written by a lecturer of telugu at A.C.College, gunTUru. the book helped me learn about a lot of jAtulu and upajAtulu which weren't taught at school. a question for suresh: is the software advanced enough to guide beginners in writing on the lines of chandassu. i was always deterred by the two fold problem of composing the padyam with the right words and right chandhassu at the same time. chinnappuDu j~nApakaSakti chAla bAgA unnappuDu nErchukOgA vachE vidya ippuDu brahmavidya ayi kUrchundi. prasad From palaka@simon.wustl.edu Thu Nov 16 17:58:05 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 17:58:02 -0600; AA19619 Received: from wugate.wustl.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 17:58:00 -0600 Received: from simon.wustl.edu by wugate.wustl.edu (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA04724 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:57:44 -0600 From: palaka@simon.wustl.edu Message-Id: <199511162357.RAA04724@wugate.wustl.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: wugate.wustl.edu: daemon owned process doing -bs Received: from simon.wustl.edu by wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 17:57:59 CST Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 17:57:59 CST To: "telusa@cs.wisc.edu"@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: paarvatee paramESwarou Krishna Kandadai gaaru wrote: ====================================================================== ... why SPB in the movie sAgarasangamam, while reciting the padyam (I dont remember the starting lines) broke down the word pArvatIparamESvaraM and recited it as pArvatIpa ramESvaram. One of my friends explained that "when it is broken down it means mahAvishNu (rama+ISvara?). That's what, in fact, the idea of the poet was (was it kALidAsu?)". (Any comments on this?). ====================================================================== and, Nasy gaaru added: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The SlOkam was recited a 'paarvatee paramESwarau' for a long time. (I think this SlOkam figures as an invocation in kaaLidaasu's kumaarasambhavam). The controversy was this. jagatat pitarau, vandE paarvatee paramESwarau The phrase 'pitarau' is in dual number, meaning 'to the two fathers of the world'. Then the following phrase contradicts this by quoting a woman (paarvati). How can paaravti be a father of the world? So the common man consoled himself that the poet meant parents, and not fathers when he said 'pitarau'. Then, some wise guy came to the rescue of kaaLidaasu: he said kaaLidaasu is not an idiot to write 'pitarau' when he wants to say parents; he would have said 'maataa pitarau' or some such thing. In this case, he means exactly what he says: 'to the two fathers of the world, namely husband of paarvati, and husband of rama' -> hence the split 'paarvateepa ramESwarau' ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ My own interpretation: the above mentioned SlOkam is the first one in "raghu_vamSam" written by Kalidasa. And, it goes as follows: "vaagarthaa_viva sampRktou vaagartha: pratipattayE jagata: pitarou vandE paarvatee paramESwarou" ( Sabdaarthaalu kalisi vunnatlu kalisi vunna (sampRktou) paarvatee paramESwarulaku, SabdaarthaalalO "expertise" kOsam ( read, for word-power) namaskaristunnaanu! ) from the meaning of the SlOkam, i think it was the paarvatee paramESwarulu who Kalidasa had in mind - otherwise, he wouldn't have said "viDadeeya lEnaTlugaa kalisi vunna jagata: pitarou". i think it is much easier to assume Kalidasa used "pitarou" to mean "mother & father" rather than to imagine Siva and Vishnu entwined like the words and their meanings. After all, isn't it Siva who has the name "artha_naareeSwaruDu" ? ( don't we say "pitR dEvatalu" to refer to ancestors - both male and female? Performers introducing "virupulu" in an old poem/song and there by bringing to our attention a new and equally delightful meaning is nothing new. when N people have sung the same song before you were ever born, that is one of the ways you could show some ingenuity. sometimes, in "kavi sammELanaalu", you hear the poet himself repeating a line twice, each time suggesting a different meaning via a different separation of the words. but somehow, i could never enjoy SPB singing "vaagarthaaviva.." the way he did - probably because the meaning is inappropriate. ( by the way, the credit or discredit for the word-break should go to the lyricist / music director NOT the singer. ) Talking about "virupulu", we see /hear them in almost every classical music performance. The reason is quite different from the one I mentioned above though. In classical music, the performers sacrifice the most beautiful saahityam (lyrics) to do justice to the raagam or to the technical aspects of the performance. I often think it is actually a clever scheme by the madrasi musicians who couldn't really appreciate the lyrics anyway. by making it a standard practice, they ensured even the telugus don't enjoy the lyrics. regards, -rao From STADIGAD@us.oracle.com Thu Nov 16 18:26:57 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 18:26:54 -0600; AA20042 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 18:26:52 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id QAA17008; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:26:51 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA17498; Thu, 16 Nov 95 16:28:06 PST Message-Id: <9511170028.AA17498@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 16 Nov 95 15:59:59 -0800 From: "STADIGAD.US.ORACLE.COM" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: verification of chandas. Mime-Version: 1.0 I do not want to disappoint any tool development or any ready made tool. But it my humble opinion, it is a very big task than it appears outward. There are several issues which complicate the job. 1 Identifying laghu and guru matras. All know the simple rules that enable us to designate a given letter in telugu ( or sanskrit ) as laghu or guru. But there are some twists too. example. manDala mEle nokka dwija maatruDu kshatruluu mantrulai ranan. Here, the the letter `no' becomes guru by ordinary rule. Butm `kka' does not become guru, though the succeding letter `dwi' is a dwitwaksharam. This is because `okka dwija' does not form a samaasa. They remain un associated. When unassociated as above, the ordinary rule is excepted. It is difficult to build s/w to consider such tricky cases. 2. Identifying `gana' sequence. This does not pose problem in most majority of cases. But occationally it could become difficult too. In some `chitra kavitwa' compositions, poets some times take fancy, we may have serious troubles. example. A `kanda garbha seesa' is a seesa padyam with kanda padyam(s) embedded. 3. The concept of yati. I doubt whether we could build s/w to check yati maitri. It is a too big topic and often controvertial in some cases. There are at least 56 yati matri matchings are there. Some books mention even more situations. Some time more than one kind of yati maitri is satisfied. 4. Praasa. If praasa has to be checked, I think it can be done with a reasonable guaranty. 5. conventions. It is a common convention, that in vRitta padyas and uddhura malaa's as well, all 4 lines are natuaral laggus or natural gurus for their starting letter beforing applying the prasa letter to make it guru when applicable. [ If first letter of a line 1 is `kaa', then generally a second line will not start with some `ta' ]. Though kanda padyam is not vRitta, it usually follows the above convention. 6 Letter inhibitions. Poets of yester years strongly believed that poetry has not only easthetic power, but also has certian spiritual power as well. Each gana is awarded atrributions like color, diety, time, varna, age, ruchi and may be more things like that. Also, letters of varnamaala are given all these above kind of attributes. Hence, for reasons pertaining to matching ( or mismatching ) of atrributes, some letters are prohibitted from appearing at some places in a poem. For example, `ta' should not appear at 6th position. There are several others like this. Consider haya madi seeta ........... ( vEmulavADa bhima kavi ) Bhima kavi cursed one fellow who stole his horse, so they say. Are we going to check a poem for inhibitted letters? Extra task, but not impossible. 7. Missing/excess parts in a poem. Some time we may have a poem or two, with missing parts are excess letters / words in it. The s/w should be able to tackle the situation and not stop on first error or fail. If extra words, show them, if there are missing parts, show where things miss. This also can be done, but there is a cost, some time a big sequence must be analysed, even the whole poem. Sometimes a poem which is 4 lines normlly may be 5 or 6 lines, legitamately. -Syamala Rao ~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Thu Nov 16 21:09:03 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 21:09:01 -0600; AA23138 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 21:08:59 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 22:10:18 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Cc: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" Subject: Chao-ware Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-Id: <9511162210.aa00635@HEL4.ARL.MIL> I am familiauresh's program, so let me comment on it, in hbsence. He will be back in less than a monthand can correct any misinterpretations. The program (written in C) identifies laghu/guru mAtrassyllables, and takes into account the compound-consonant conditions. Initiay it did not correctly identify the situations given as examples by Syamala RaoI don't remember the example, but let me give the line lAvokkintayu lEdu, dhairyamu vilOmbayye, prANambulun ... Here, the last syllable in "vilOlambayye" is a laghuvu, even though thfirst syllable in the next word is a compound consonant "prA". This is becin between the two words, therenaturally occurring pause, that breaks the conne To take care of this situation, a special character has tced at such positions, for the software to properly parse the mAtras. Things like "/", "\" were proposed, but I suggested a double space between such wordswhich serves the same purpose, but would be transparent to the casual reader. He has inrporated this, and it works to a large extent. Of course one can visualize situations where it can be tripped. In the famous poem, akroora varada kESava cakrAyudha pANi! .... the fir syllable "a" is a guruvu, because the "kroo" next to it. But if you use the eigth volong-R, sometimes the preceding laghuvu stays a laghuvu. The common example given for this is the word "pitRNamu" (the R should be long, but I forgot the RIT notation for it). There are times poets exercise their license as per the demands of chandassu. Having then identified the laghuvu-guruvu sequence of syllables in a line, it is a simple matter to identify whether the poem is one of the Gang-of-Fo vRttas (campaka mAla, utpala mAla, mattEbhamu, SArdUlamu) But any of the other popular meters posemendous challenges. Kandam with its dozen or so rules, esam, ATaveladi, tETagIti, madhyAkkara - these have a wide latitude in the allowed gaNas. The program needs to be quite "intelligent" to identify thes There can be traps too! Sines of a seesa padyam can be mistaken for lines from a tETagIti, or ATaveladi. I'll try to come up with examples later. Of course, these are peculiar circumstances, and one program need noke care of all eventualities. This comp/keyboard/modem connection is introducing a lot of glitches. I'll stop here and resume later. Ramakrishna From nparinand@cas.org Thu Nov 16 22:53:21 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 22:53:19 -0600; AA24415 Received: from srv01s4.cas.org by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 16 Nov 95 22:53:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 23:53:14 EST From: nparinand@cas.org (PALANA (pa'lana or pAlana)) Message-Id: <9511162353.AA21177@cas.org> Subject: PLANTS IN POTANA's BHAGAVATAM # 2 To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu PLANTS IN POTANA'S BHAGAVATAM -2 -------------------------------- Two days ago, my friend, Sri Vadaparty Kumar (my Bhagavatam Guru), reminded me about the rest of the plants in Sri Bapa Rao's Potana's Garden. It is time to catch up with the rest of the story. 12) kuTaja (Sanskrit - as Potana called) Botanical Name: Holarrhena antidysenterica Family : Apocynaceae (gannEru family) Sanskrit : kuTaja; panDura; kaLimga Hindi : kurchi Telugu : amkuDu; koDise; giri mallika; komDa malle; kuTajamu; palla ceTTu kuTaja = the plant that grows on peaks. A tall shrub or small tree of about 10 m tall. Flowers are white and fragrant in large bunches. Common in forests of Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra. Wood has economic value. As the botanical name indicates, the plant is useful in treating dysentery. The plant contains several alkaloids like conessine, kurchine, kurchicine and several others. This plant grows upto 4000 ft on the Himalyas. 13) kumda (Sanskrit - as Potana called) Botanical Name : Jasminium multiflorum Family : Oleaceae (Malle or Malli Family) Sanskrit : kumda Hindi : kumdphool Telugu : kumdamu; molla pushpamu; kumda malli or kumda malle English : Jasmine ; Star Jasmine Medicinal Uses : In treating ulcers and as an antidote against cobra bite (venom) (There are several varieties of malle mokkalu. Some time ago I prepared an essay and Suresh Kolichala helped me with some literary gimmicks on malle poovulu. I will post that soon.) 14) kuramTaka (Sanskrit - as Potana called) Botanical Name : Barleria prionitis Family : Acanthaceae (niila'mbaramu Family) Sanskrit : kuramTa Telugu : kuramTakamu; pacca pedda gOramTa; pacca mulu gOramTa; kuruvakamu; kurumTa; kurumTakamu Hindi : kaTasareya Bombay : vajra danti English : Yellow Amaranth Medicinal Uses : Leaves are chewed to relieve toothache. Paste is used to treat boils. Leaf juice is given to children to cure fevers. This plant is rich in potassium. 15) Karjooramu (Sanskrit - Karjoora - as Potana called) Botanical Name : Phoenix dactylifera Family : Palmae or Palmaceae (The Palm or Coconut Family) Sanskrit : pinDa Karjoora Hindi : Kajur Telugu : Karjooramu; Karjoorapu ceTTu; pEriita ceTTu English : Date Palm Resembles the iita ceTTu. The iita in Sanskrit is "Karjoori". In telugu it is called "pedda yiita". The fruits (ripen) are sweet. The exaudate is called iita kallu and supposedly has cooling effect. Potana did not mention anything about it. 16) na'rikELa (Sanskrit - as Potana called) Botanical Name : Cocos nucifera Family : Palmae or Palmaceae (Coconut or Palm Family) Hindi : Nariyal Tamil : Tenkai Telugu : na'rikELamu; kobbari ka'ya; Temka'ya English : Coconut What else I can say about this plant. You know it all - kobbari paccaDi; kobbari Kajjam; kobbari vumDalu; kobbari barphii - ha'rTu eTa'ku :-) 17) simduva'ra (Sanskrit - as Potana called) Botanical Name : Vitex negundo Family : Verbenaceae (Teak family) Sanskrit : nirgundi Telugu : simduva'ramu; va'vili ceTTu; nalla va'vili 18) camdana (Sanskrit - as Potana called) Botanical Name : Santalum album Family : Santalaceae (Sandalwood Family) Sanskrit : camdana Hindi : camdan Telugu : camdanamu English : Sandalwood Especially the Hills of Simhachalam and Tirupati are full of these trees. An interesting fact I should mention about this plant - This is a parasitic plant at one stage of its life cycle. 19) picumamdamu ( as Potana called) Botanical Name : Azadirachta indica Family : Meliaceae (Neem family) Sanskrit : Nimba Hindi : Nim Telugu : vEpa; picumamdamu English : Nim ; Margosa I posted an essay on this about more than a year ago. A controversial tree now in the International market. Rest coming soon. ---pa'lana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ._~Y~_; More than 90% of the forest wealth is gone in India. ' (* *) Loss of valuable species is going on in a geometrical ^--\-/--^ scale - till none of those is left! @`_/ /\ ^ /\ \_'@=+---------Every species is valuable! `__' {===} `__' nlp55@cas.org /_____\ AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY || || Chemical Abstracts Service _________N_|_|_P_________________________________________________________ Disclaimer: Opinions expressed above are not those of the CAS at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Fri Nov 17 07:57:56 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 07:57:53 -0600; AA01742 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 07:57:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 8:51:33 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Subject: Chando-Ware Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-Id: <9511170851.aa06987@HEL4.ARL.MIL> I was afraid of the glitches in my last mail, but didn't realize that even the subject line got mangled as "chao-ware"! Chinese pottery! The following is what you ought to have seen. Aravinda sent me a mail asking what is "chao-ware". ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am familiar with Suresh's program, so let me comment on it, in his absence. He will be back in less than a month and can correct any misinterpretations. The program (written in C) identifies laghu/guru mAtra syllables, and takes into account the compound-consonant conditions. Initially it did not correctly identify the situations given as examples by Syamala Rao. I don't remember the example, but let me give the line lAvokkintayu lEdu, dhairyamu vilOmbayye, prANambulun ... Here, the last syllable in "vilOlambayye" is a laghuvu, even though the first syllable in the next word is a compound consonant "prA". This is because in between the two words, there is a naturally occurring pause, that breaks the connection between the two syllables in question. To take care of this situation, a special character had to be placed at such positions, for the software to properly parse the mAtras. Things like "/", "\" were proposed, but I suggested a double space between such words which serves the same purpose, but would be transparent to the casual reader. He has incorporated this, and it works to a large extent. Of course one can visualize situations where it can be tripped. In the famous poem, akroora varada kESava cakrAyudha pANi! .... the first syllable "a" is a guruvu, because the "kroo" next to it. But when you use the eigth vowel, long-R, sometimes the preceding laghuvu stays a laghuvu. The common example given for this is the word "pitRNamu" (the R should be long, but I forgot the RIT notation for it). There are times poets exercise their license as per the demands of chandassu. Having then identified the laghuvu-guruvu sequence of syllables in a line, it is a simple matter to identify whether the poem is one of the Gang-of-Four (GOF) vRttas (campaka mAla, utpala mAla, mattEbhamu, SArdUlamu) But any of the other popular meters pose tremendous challenges. Kandam with its dozen or so rules, seesam, ATaveladi, tETagIti, madhyAkkara - these have a wide latitude in the allowed gaNas. The program needs to be quite "intelligent" to identify these. There can be traps too! Some lines of a seesa padyam can be mistaken for lines from a tETagIti, or ATaveladi. I'll try to come up with examples later. Of course, these are peculiar circumstances, and one program need not take care of all eventualities. This comp/keyboard/modem connection is introducing a lot of glitches. I'll stop here and resume later. Ramakrishna From CJAMPALA@desire.wright.edu Fri Nov 17 12:17:07 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:17:05 -0600; AA05281 Received: from desire.wright.edu by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:17:02 -0600 Received: from desire.wright.edu by desire.wright.edu (PMDF V5.0-5 #2485) id <01HXR1TH8UCW8ZHHRS@desire.wright.edu> for telusa@cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:18:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:18:17 -0500 (EST) From: "V. Chowdary Jampala" Subject: Re: EVOLUTION AND RETROGRESSIVE METAMORPHOSIS OF TELUGU LANGUAGE? To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Message-Id: <01HXR1THAPV68ZHHRS@desire.wright.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"telusa@cs.wisc.edu" X-Vms-Cc: CJAMPALA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Well, well! I didn't realize that 'palana' garu is this familiar with the modern Telugu film 'literature'! :-) Regards. --- V. Chowdary Jampala From STADIGAD@us.oracle.com Fri Nov 17 12:47:37 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:47:35 -0600; AA06012 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:47:32 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id KAA31049; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:47:30 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA06149; Fri, 17 Nov 95 10:48:41 PST Message-Id: <9511171848.AA06149@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 17 Nov 95 10:36:18 -0800 From: "STADIGAD.US.ORACLE.COM" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: paarvastee-paramEswarau. Mime-Version: 1.0 It is hard for me to understand that Kaalidaasa originally meant the samaasa paarvasteeparamEswarau to be understood as paarvasteepa ramEswarau insted as paarvastee paramEswarau Does any body has knowledge what kOlaachala mallinaadha soori has commented upon this poem. Kindly post. Thinking that for centuries everybody missed until some cenekavi got wise ovr this is too much for me. -Syamala Rao ~~~~~~~~~~~~ From KKONDAKA@us.oracle.com Fri Nov 17 12:51:22 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:51:20 -0600; AA06069 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:51:18 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id KAA14891; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:51:16 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA06681; Fri, 17 Nov 95 10:52:32 PST Message-Id: <9511171852.AA06681@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 17 Nov 95 10:44:45 -0800 From: "Krishna Kondaka" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re : ChandO-ware Mime-Version: 1.0 I thank Syaamala rao gaaru and raamakRshNa gaaru for pointing out the some of the anamolies (or special cases, in computer terminology) in identifying laghuvu, guruvu maatralu in a padyam. Also I agree with raamakRshNa gari comments about suresh's program. I am sorry if I gave any immpression, in my last mail, that his program is complete and totally fool-proof. He is aware that his program does not take of most of the special cases and not complete but I think he has not modified his program to take care of all those things because he does not have any users who would use that to its fullest extent. I think he can easily extend it if needed. I guess I have already spoken too much on be-half of him. So I leave rest to him. I believe that the program can be completely fool-proof if the rules to identify a particular type of padyam are fixed, no matter how much context sensitve they are. The program may become very big and complex but can be done. My(not suresh's) answer to prasad chODavarapu : I believe that the program should only help you in correcting the gaNaalu to make a particular padyam of a certain type. I think you should a padyam first and put it through the program to look at the gaNas and you should probably try to correct the gaNas that deviate from making that particular line from a particular type. Also writing a padyam like "kandam" should be easier than writing a vRtta padyam like utpalamaala because you have more flexibilty there. My two cent worth. kRshna konDaka From STADIGAD@us.oracle.com Fri Nov 17 12:52:22 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:52:20 -0600; AA06082 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:52:18 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id KAA21081; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:52:16 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA06951; Fri, 17 Nov 95 10:53:31 PST Message-Id: <9511171853.AA06951@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 17 Nov 95 10:31:11 -0800 From: "STADIGAD.US.ORACLE.COM" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: chandOnuSeelanam. Mime-Version: 1.0 I have made several points in my previous article on so called chando-ware. Elaboration on one of the points here. The program is bound to miss some laghu ( I ) to guru ( U ) non modifications because of sanskrit and telugu mixing rules. When a telugu word is followed by a sanskrit word or vice versa, there is no sandhikriya and there is no I->U modification in these cases. In the examples, manDala mEle nokka dwija maatruDu ...... ~~~~~~ and dhairyamu vilOlambayye praNambulaa...... ~~~~~~~ there is no sandhi at the underscored positions. Note the words okka (telugu) and dwija(sanskrit) in the first and ayye(telugu) and praaNa(sanskrit). Softwares may not be able to detetect and cope with these kind of linguistic barriers. As Pillalamarri garu suggested, special syntactic sugars may be applied for these cases. But frankly I can not subscribe to this idea of an extra blank. It goes against the idea that space should not be used for any other purpose and any amount of blank space is tech'lly identical to one single space. Also, I do not think it is solving the original problem any elegantly. I wish to use blanks and tabs, even form feeds for my text formatting and resist any attempt by softwares to assign any special syntactic and semantic significances to white space characters under any pretext. A syntactic marker for the ease of recognization is one thing and formatting and presenting the text of matter is another. One should not step over the boundaries of the other. - Syamala Rao. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From KKONDAKA@us.oracle.com Fri Nov 17 13:18:52 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 13:18:50 -0600; AA06462 Received: from inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 13:18:48 -0600 Received: from mailsun2.us.oracle.com by inet-smtp-gw-1.us.oracle.com with SMTP (8.6.12/37.7) id LAA24857; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 11:18:47 -0800 Received: by mailsun2.us.oracle.com (4.1/37.8) id AA10847; Fri, 17 Nov 95 11:19:55 PST Message-Id: <9511171919.AA10847@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Date: 17 Nov 95 11:11:12 -0800 From: "KKONDAKA.US.ORACLE.COM" To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: EVOLUTION AND RETROGRESSIVE METAMORPHOSIS OF TELUGU LANGUAGE? Mime-Version: 1.0 PALANA gaari sinimaa paaTala list chaaalaa baagundi. naalaagaa migataa memberss kooDaa vaari vaari telugu vocabulary improve chEsukunnaarani anukunTunnaanu. I think about ten years back, there was an article by D.V.narasa rAju in eenaaDu daily in third page (I forgot the sIrshika pEru) on this topic. He started with the song in sangharshaNa that goes like this sanna jaaji pandiri kinda mella mellagaa ... ... ... Dam chaku Damchaku Dam chaku Dam Unfortunately I do not remember more than this from that article:-( Does any body happen to read it and remember? kRshNa konDaka From juvvadi@allegra.att.com Fri Nov 17 18:20:13 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 18:20:11 -0600; AA11729 Received: from gw2.att.com by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 18:20:09 -0600 Received: from allegra.tempo.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA06236; Fri, 17 Nov 95 10:24:47 EST Message-Id: <9511171524.AA06236@ig1.att.att.com> Received: from juvvadi.tempo.att.com by allegra.tempo.att.com; id AA27221; Fri, 17 Nov 95 10:26:00 EST Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 10:22:23 EST From: juvvadi@allegra.att.com (Ramana Juvvadi) To: telusa@lucy.cs.wisc.edu Subject: Re: verification of chandas. Despite the doubts expressed by Syamala Rao, I feel it should be easy to write a software to check chandassu which works in 99.9% of the cases. However, the bigger problem is, we don't have telugu literary works in electronic form. At least I am not aware if any exist. Let me take off on a tangential topic here. One of my dreams is to put all the ancient Telugu works into electronic form. The entire telugu mahabharatam in electronic form occupies only 10 megabytes. Assuming that 1000 years of Telugu lit ( I mean pre-1900) is not more than 65 times mahabharatam, we should be able to squeeze all the ancient poetry into one CD-ROM! I hope the govt will come forward in the future to take up this project. Ramana From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Fri Nov 17 22:15:42 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 22:15:38 -0600; AA14346 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 17 Nov 95 22:15:36 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 23:14:59 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Cc: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" , "Aravinda Pillalamarri, Columbia Univ" Subject: On Verification of chandassu Organization: Message-Id: <9511172314.aa19320@HEL4.ARL.MIL> Juvvadi Ramana says that it should be easy to write software to check chandassu, that would work in most cases. I would think it is quite difficult to do so, especially for telugu meters, considering the wide flexibility therein. However, the truth (of the relative ease or difficulty) may lie somewhere in between, considering that all meters (no, make that most meters) are quite deterministic. One of the quirks is that of grouping the syllables to form gaNas. The GOF vRttas are a piece of cake in this respect. So are most other Sanskrit vRttas, that you would usually see at the end of chapters of epics. mandAkrAnta (all of mEgha sandESam), mAlini, SikhariNi, panca cAmaramu, bhujanga prayAtamu, and such have very deterministic, three syllable gaNas, that can be parsed with your eyes closed. However, there are many exceptions. Even a simple meter such as anushTup is quite un-deterministic in nature. Telugu vRttas are a different species unto themselves. Yet, computer resources - memory, time, mindware being quite advanced now, the task may be difficult, interesting, but by no means impossible. However, a question remains. Apart from the intellectual challenge it poses in formulating the logic, what is the utility of such a program? I see parallels to this task, and that of taking a classicla music composition and determining its rAga. My knowledge of music being not quite enough to write on the back of a postage stamp, I would ask someone (there is quite an intersection between this group and that of ghanTasAla) to say if my observations is correct. Or, say which might be slightly more difficult. Krishna Kondaka said that a kanda padyam is relatively easy to write. He put me in a spot. I have been thinking about it. chandam, bandham bAdara bandee manakendu kicaTa swEcchamgA O vandaku paigA kandAl tondaragA wrAya kOrikayyenu nAkun! oorikE panilEka okappuDu, evarO oka jOku cepitE (pani lEnidi nAku, aa jOku ceppina vALLaku kAdu), ee padyam rAsAnu. velcEru rAwu mAshTaru pilcArani mesEjandagAnE, ravi, nE kAlcEstA, nuvvidigO peelcEy, mari peelarandukO, ani TAsen! Both of these are a bit dated. In either one, I ignored the 'yati' requirement. Other rules are in tact. It has been my wish to find a chandO-baddha poem, with all or mostly English words in it. Not yet. Look at this one which some of you have seen before. caltee kA naam hai gADee excuse me for the parody life is plain, dull and ho-hum skAci tappa aarani dAham It is not free verse. It follows the meter for sandhyA samasyalu, and dESa caritralu of SrISrI. Of course the meter itself is very, very old. Dr. Kovela Sampatkumara who wrote a definitive work "telugulO chandO vikAsamu", opines that it is one of a family called "khanDa jAtulu". SrISrI himself showed the similarity between lines such as "Srama nishphalamai, .... nishThuramai ..." and "bhaja gOvindam bhaja gOvindam" (4 sa-gaNas in each line). Where did I start, and where am I now? More again. Ramakrishna PS: forgot to mention the structure of that. It has 14-mAtras in each line, composed of laghuvu-or-guruvu syllables. There are some more restrictions. There cannot be an overlap between the 6th and seventh mAtra, by which I mean UUU-UUUU is allowed, but UUIUUUUI is not allowed, because the 4th mAtra causes the overlap. I wish I can phrase this better. There may be other restrictions that I haven't figured out yet. Which brings me to the point that "strict rules" are not imposed by "chandassu" on poems and gEyams, but an inherent flow in such, which is necessary ofr their singability, results in "all those rules"! I mean, the rules are determined by an aalysis of the "flow" in the verse, as opposed to the verse following all those rules. From pkrishna@ARL.MIL Sat Nov 18 07:19:04 1995 Received: from lucy.cs.wisc.edu by sea.cs.wisc.edu; Sat, 18 Nov 95 07:19:01 -0600; AA19611 Received: from hel4.arl.mil by lucy.cs.wisc.edu; Sat, 18 Nov 95 07:18:59 -0600 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 8:20:14 EST From: "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" To: Telugu Literary Discussion Group Cc: "Aravinda Pillalamarri, Columbia Univ" , "Ramakrishna S. Pillalamarri" Subject: On Verification of chandassu Organization: U.S. Army Human Engineering Research Directorate Message-Id: <9511180820.aa23113@HEL4.ARL.MIL> saw a couple of typos, needed clarifications, in my previous mail on this. In the PS segment, the disallowed "UUIUUUUI" causes the overlap between 6th and 7th mAtra, because of the 4th syllable being a guruvu, not the 4th mAtra. A laghuvu being considered one mAtra, and a guruvu as two mAtras. Dr. Sampatkumara also said that the meter for mutyAla sarAlu is only popularized by gurajADa, not created by him. It belongs to a family of dESi meters, called "ragaDa"s. The structure is: three lines of 14 mAtras followed by a line of 9 mAtras (I have seen some of all four lines of 14 mAtras) The structure for each line is, takiTa-takataka, takiTa-takataka where takiTa can be III, UI (dhinta), or IU (tadhim), and takataka can be IIII, UII (dhimtaka), IIU (takajham), but not IUI (tadhinta) The last (when short) line is takiTa-takataka-tai with the same rules, but always a guruvu as the last syllable. Let me conclude by a popular lament in this verse. endukee chandAla bAdhalu! oorikE pani lEni vALLaki, bAnDu wiDtunu kharcu peDatam kAka pOtEnU? BTW, viSwanAtha's "kOkilamma peLLi" is in this verse. Ramakrishna PS: I would dearly love if a "novice" in chandassu follows these carefully and lets me know where I might have inadvertently made an error, or didn't explain something properly, or where there is an inconsistency.